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It is in Gods power to say everything will work out for the best in the end and then deliver. He can say it will all be alright and then accomplish just that if that is what he truly desires, and the bible specifically states that it is Gods will and desire that all should be saved.
You then go on to talk about the "child strength" vs. the "adult strength", and though i don't really follow what you are saying i infer that you are making reference to being spiritually mature v.s being spiritually immature. I don't know, I wont go there yet, as that part didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so maybe you could expound on it?
You quote certain verses, and then you apply the Sir. Spinsalot version of the traditional orthodox interpretation to them and say, "this is what God says", instead of taking the verses to mean what they say and only that.
Nevertheless, maybe some others may find my words to be of some use, even if you do not ...
I'm unable to address everything that you wrote....however in short version. I do feel sorry that with all your efforts to validate yourself..the simple thing just seem to escape your understanding.
1. You claim that "nowhere mentioned even once that one must believe before they die in order to be saved"
Response:
Read carefully the sequence of events in John 6:40.
Read carefully the sequence of events in Matthew 25:31-46
Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Man (humans) do not face some supposed restoration clause after death ... anything other than judgement is the lie.
2.
Your second disappointment from me is that infact I read what is written that is directed to me. I have learned from the multiple posts exactly what Christian Biblical Universalism teaches...and that what's annoying you. I and many others like me are not persuaded by the propaganda.
Universalism is neither what you think it is... Biblical or Christian.
3.
This argument that Universalism is Satanic can be no more exemplified than from this typical conclusion:
"At which time they shall be judged, and the effects of that judgment in their lives will cause them to have a change of hear and to be spiritually quickened so that they will acknowledge that Christ is lord and shall worship him to the glory of the father."
Why not just speak what Satan is really trying to promote:
Faith in Jesus before death is optional\ unneccesary. You're going to be believe anyway and be saved.
Hopefully (if I remember) when somebody arrogantly asks when does UR'ers say that faith isn't neccesary while alive for eternal life........I will quote this from you.
4. Then questions must arise, "what about those who never heard of the message of the gospel, and therefore never rejected Christ but simply never believed because they didn't know any better?"
Being we've been here before...what you really are saying is:
I don't agree with you God ... it's not fair !
You're not interested in conforming to God's word,... it's more of conforming God to UR. Your answer is in Romans 3:19
Appears to say the same thing, no matter which way you read it:
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes him shall have life and I will raise them up at the last day
And I will raise them up at the last day, for my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes him shall have life...
…more abundantly?
Judgment and life happens now for a few, after death, and the resurrection to life and judgment for others. (This is saying the same thing, only at different times; each in their own order)
Either way, it happens after you die to self.
But that isn't what is being said. It's more like this:
Jerfade, you will be judged after death. Not restored, but judged.
Those who believe in my Son before appearing in My Court shall have eternal life........no ifs, ands or buts.
However.....
Jerfade, if you reject my Son by not believing in Him, I will hold you accountable for that. the results:
you will judged
you'll be convicted
and thrown into the place assigned for the Satan and his devils (probably against your will and objections).
From there, the last thing you will ever see is the righteous entering heaven. Knowing that only you forsook the grace offered to you.
In total darkness there will you be; in weeping and gnashing of teeth ........no ifs, ands or buts.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-30-2010 at 06:22 PM..
Of course i don't imagine you read much of what any of us ever write, as you have proven time and again that you are either truly ignorant of what Christian Biblical Universalism teaches, or you simply refuse to acknowledge what it teaches because you cannot otherwise make answers for it.
This captures the problem completely as regards, Twin, Finn, Mike, etc. They do not even engage the subject intellectually. They make the knee jerk responses of their indoctrination and conditioning . . . no thought involved. They are responding to what they ignorantly have been told about the general concept of UR (a pack of lies) and then ignore any of the specifics in a rote defense of their "Faith" . . . as if the boogie man (Satan) would somehow trap them into the very ET they believe in just for even considering such heresy. Note how they almost universally spout the "deny Jesus - want to keep sinning" mantra . . . as if any of us deny Jesus or want to keep sinning. It is almost comical the frequency with which the mantra is brought up in every discussion of ET vs. UR.
Quote:
Nevertheless, maybe some others may find my words to be of some use, even if you do not ...
Our efforts do not go unnoticed by the lurkers, Iron . . the spiritual immaturity and superstitious idiocy of the ET belief is made ever more obvious with each discussion.
I'm unable to address everything that you wrote....however in short version. I do feel sorry that with all your efforts to validate yourself..the simple thing just seem to escape your understanding.
Yes, we agree that we both believe that the other is deceived ...
Quote:
1. You claim that "nowhere mentioned even once that one must believe before they die in order to be saved"
Response:
Read carefully the sequence of events in John 6:40.
Read carefully the sequence of events in Matthew 25:31-46
Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Man (humans) do not face some supposed restoration clause after death ... anything other than judgement is the lie.
Nowhere in any of the scriptures you mentioned, neither anywhere else in the scriptures does it even come close to saying that one must believe in Christ before they die in order to be saved.
You are simply adding that idea to the scriptures and claiming that your interpretation of the scriptures is the word of God, while the scriptures themselves never say what you claim they are saying.
Quote:
2.
Your second disappointment from me is that infact I read what is written that is directed to me. I have learned from the multiple posts exactly what Christian Biblical Universalism teaches...and that what's annoying you. I and many others like me are not persuaded by the propaganda.
Universalism is neither what you think it is ... Biblical or Christian.
Then why do you incessantly post nonsense about what we believe and bare false witness about what we teach? Why don't you deal with the theology we present you intelligently and debate on a rational level instead of constantly misrepresenting our position and then claiming that you have accomplished something whenever you stand up and knock down one of your little strawman arguments?
Not once on this thread have you dealt with the actual explanation and point that is given to you by one of the universalists concerning what we believe and how you are misrepresenting it?
You are being very disingenuous ... And it is obvious. I am not the only one who notices it.
Quote:
3.
This argument that Universalism is Satanic can be no more exemplified than from this typical conclusion:
"At which time they shall be judged, and the effects of that judgment in their lives will cause them to have a change of hear and to be spiritually quickened so that they will acknowledge that Christ is lord and shall worship him to the glory of the father."
Why not just speak what Satan is really trying to promote:
Faith in Jesus before death is optional\ unneccesary. You're going to be believe anyway and be saved.
Hopefully (if I remember) when somebody arrogantly asks when does UR'ers say that faith isn't neccesary while alive for eternal life........I will quote this from you.
And why don't you quote that i don't believe the scriptures even speak of eternal life to begin with, but instead teach of the life of the age(s) and also of immortality while your at it?
Ill tell you what Satan is trying to promote, that he is victorious over Christ and his sin is greater and more powerful in the lives of most creation than Christs righteousness and his work on the cross.
What you teach is that in the struggle between good and evil, Satan and God, over the souls of all mankind, that Satan and evil come out victorious.
You teach that Satan's power to deceive is greater than the power of God to save.
Quote:
4. Then questions must arise, "what about those who never heard of the message of the gospel, and therefore never rejected Christ but simply never believed because they didn't know any better?"
Being we've been here before...what you really are saying is:
I don't agree with you God ... it's not fair !
You're not interested in conforming to God's word,... it's more of conforming God to UR. Your answer is in Romans 3:19
It is about understanding what the spirit is saying in our hearts and seeing the example provided by Christ in the way he lived his life, and using that as our measure of what is good and evil.
Its about allowing the spirit to speak to our hearts and our consciences instead of blindly trusting in the morally corrupt and violent traditions of the worlds premier religions and their false interpretations of scriptures and the diabolical doctrines that arise from them.
But that isn't what is being said. It's more like this:
Jerfade, you will be judged after death. Not restored, but judged.
Those who believe in my Son before appearing in My Court shall have eternal life........no ifs, ands or buts.
However.....
Jerfade, if you reject my Son by not believing in Him, I will hold you accountable for that. the results:
you will judged
you'll be convicted
and thrown into the place assigned for the Satan and his devils (probably against your will and objections).
From there, the last thing you will ever see is the righteous entering heaven. Knowing that only you forsook the grace offered to you.
In total darkness there will you be; in weeping and gnashing of teeth ........no ifs, ands or buts.
You have bought the primitive savage beliefs and ignorant interpretations of our ancestors and ignored the unambiguous example of Jesus. Their minds could not conceive of any authority over them that was NOT authoritarian, jealous and egotistical, etc. . . . ALL their kings were . . . so why would their God be any different. You have retained that ignorant view of God despite what SHOULD have been 2000+ years of spiritual maturity and enlightenment . . . thanks to your benighted religious leaders. Why would God need you to overtly acknowledge His Son intellectually . . . when He would know if you had accepted His example and teachings from within through His Holy Spirit? God would not even need our "fruits" to know what the truth about our ACTUAL beliefs are. So what is the point of what you espouse and why would it incur such a horrific and evil consequence????
Nowhere in any of the scriptures you mentioned, neither anywhere else in the scriptures does it even come close to saying that one must believe in Christ before they die in order to be saved.
You are simply adding that idea to the scriptures and claiming that your interpretation of the scriptures is the word of God, while the scriptures themselves never say what you claim they are saying.
It is about understanding what the spirit is saying in our hearts and seeing the example provided by Christ in the way he lived his life, and using that as our measure of what is good and evil.
Its about allowing the spirit to speak to our hearts and our consciences instead of blindly trusting in the morally corrupt and violent traditions of the worlds premier religions and their false interpretations of scriptures and the diabolical doctrines that arise from them.
Yes, we agree that we both believe that the other is deceived ...
Nowhere in any of the scriptures you mentioned, neither anywhere else in the scriptures does it even come close to saying that one must believe in Christ before they die in order to be saved.
You are simply adding that idea to the scriptures and claiming that your interpretation of the scriptures is the word of God, while the scriptures themselves never say what you claim they are saying.
Then why do you incessantly post nonsense about what we believe and bare false witness about what we teach? Why don't you deal with the theology we present you intelligently and debate on a rational level instead of constantly misrepresenting our position and then claiming that you have accomplished something whenever you stand up and knock down one of your little strawman arguments?
Not once on this thread have you dealt with the actual explanation and point that is given to you by one of the universalists concerning what we believe and how you are misrepresenting it?
You are being very disingenuous ... And it is obvious. I am not the only one who notices it.
And why don't you quote that i don't believe the scriptures even speak of eternal life to begin with, but instead teach of the life of the age(s) and also of immortality while your at it?
Ill tell you what Satan is trying to promote, that he is victorious over Christ and his sin is greater and more powerful in the lives of most creation than Christs righteousness and his work on the cross.
What you teach is that in the struggle between good and evil, Satan and God, over the souls of all mankind, that Satan and evil come out victorious.
You teach that Satan's power to deceive is greater than the power of God to save.
t is about understanding what the spirit is saying in our hearts and seeing the example provided by Christ in the way he lived his life, and using that as our measure of what is good and evil.
Its about allowing the spirit to speak to our hearts and our consciences instead of blindly trusting in the morally corrupt and violent traditions of the worlds premier religions and their false interpretations of scriptures and the diabolical doctrines that arise from them.
Yes, we agree that we both believe that the other is deceived ...
Nowhere in any of the scriptures you mentioned, neither anywhere else in the scriptures does it even come close to saying that one must believe in Christ before they die in order to be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Then why do you incessantly post nonsense about what we believe and bare false witness about what we teach? Why don't you deal with the theology we present you intelligently and debate on a rational level instead of constantly misrepresenting our position and then claiming that you have accomplished something whenever you stand up and knock down one of your little strawman arguments?.
What you consider nonesense....God considers otherwise.
I do not misrepresent your position...only cut through it with the light of Jesus' own words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Not once on this thread have you dealt with the actual explanation and point that is given to you by one of the universalists concerning what we believe and how you are misrepresenting it?.
It's like this .... how many times does it take for you to understand John 3:36? Your going to get the same answers until you will see for yourself Matthew 25:31-46 becomes a fact
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
You are being very disingenuous ... And it is obvious. I am not the only one who notices it..
It would be better for you to not to claim take Jesus is very disingenuous ....because he isn't. John 3:36, Matthew 25:31-46 is all the proof you're going to get on this side of the grave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
And why don't you quote that i don't believe the scriptures even speak of eternal life to begin with, but instead teach of the life of the age(s) and also of immortality while your at it? .
And yet you want people to take you seriously ..... r i g h t
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Ill tell you what Satan is trying to promote, that he is victorious over Christ and his sin is greater and more powerful in the lives of most creation than Christs righteousness and his work on the cross.
What you teach is that in the struggle between good and evil, Satan and God, over the souls of all mankind, that Satan and evil come out victorious.
You teach that Satan's power to deceive is greater than the power of God to save .
Unfortunatly, people want to believe Satans deception rather than the truth.
Jonah 2:8
“Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
What you consider nonesense....God considers otherwise.
I'm sure God will look favorably upon you speaking for Him, Twin.
Quote:
I do not misrepresent your position...only cut through it with the light of Jesus' own words.
It's like this .... how many times does it take for you to understand John 3:36? Your going to get the same answers until you will see for yourself Matthew 25:31-46 becomes a fact
BTW . . . you know, Twin . . . nowhere in that passage is there a single word about believing anything. Just saying.
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