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Now Richard, you just changed a scripture. It does not say "He is not willing that His elect should perish." If you're going to quote scripture, at least quote it correctly. And then you accuse someone else of taking something out of context. You are just too much! LOL
Katie
Actually, he's correct. Let's look at the verse:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To whom is the promise of salvation?...to those who believe on Christ. The promise is not to those who remain unsaved.
Notice what Christ says in the verses below:
John 6:37 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
It goes back to the declaration of His purpose in Matthew 1:21:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
These verses tie in well with 2 Peter 3:9. A question like this one requires quite a bit of searching into the Scriptures. We often rest with the "whosoever will" verses. This is fine, provided that we understand how anyone is able to come to Christ in the first place. Either God is sovereign in our salvation, or it is ultimately our decision that saves us.
If I am spiritually dead, by nature, then I know there is nothing I can do until God makes me alive...until He gives me that new heart and that new spirit...until I am regenerated and am given ears to hear. The moment I suggest that these things happen after I make my decision for Christ is when I have definitely misunderstood the Scriptures.
Now Richard, you just changed a scripture. It does not say "He is not willing that His elect should perish." If you're going to quote scripture, at least quote it correctly. And then you accuse someone else of taking something out of context. You are just too much! LOL
Katie
I did not change a Scripture...I am merely looking at it in context...Who is the author of the Letter, who is the audience he is speaking to, Is it a general statement aimed arbitrarily or is a specific statement aimed at a specific audience for that audiences benefit of strengthening of Faith...
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Paul preaching that salvation is based on works.
Yes, this according to the Law...Jews already knew this is how to do it...However, Paul is building an arguement as to those that follow the Law are required to do the whole Law..However, he laters states by the Law no flesh shall be saved...He also goes on to explain how a man is saved, through Jeshua...If you pull those verses out of the context they are in, yes, it appears that he is preaching works, but if you read the whole letter you see the argument he is building against following the Law for Salvation, In other words, thinking you can save yourself through your works instead of through the Works of Jeshua...
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To whom is the promise of salvation?...to those who believe on Christ. The promise is not to those who remain unsaved.
Notice what Christ says in the verses below:
John 6:37 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
It goes back to the declaration of His purpose in Matthew 1:21:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
These verses tie in well with 2 Peter 3:9. A question like this one requires quite a bit of searching into the Scriptures. We often rest with the "whosoever will" verses. This is fine, provided that we understand how anyone is able to come to Christ in the first place. Either God is sovereign in our salvation, or it is ultimately our decision that saves us.
If I am spiritually dead, by nature, then I know there is nothing I can do until God makes me alive...until He gives me that new heart and that new spirit...until I am regenerated and am given ears to hear. The moment I suggest that these things happen after I make my decision for Christ is when I have definitely misunderstood the Scriptures.
Richard added the word "elect" to the verse. The word elect is not written there. That is adding to the word of God.
Where are you getting the idea that salvation isn't promised to all? And what makes you think that God isn't sovereign enough to grant us the will to choose Him? He is God. He can do anything He wants. "Whosoever will" is more than just fine. It is God's promise. You can't just blow it off with a "that's just fine."
JAA, can we start from the beginning? Let me ask you this question.
Are we totally incapable of choosing God? If you believe that, then where is the scripture that says this?
It is my understanding that we are created in God's image. We are not born totally depraved. We are completely innocent. I agree that at some point we turn away from God and become depraved, but we are never so depraved that we cannot choose God.
To believe in total depravity, you have to believe in original sin. Yet the scriptures teach babies are innocent, and they do not inherit the sins of the father.
So let's start there and work forward. All this jumping around is making me dizzy.
I would really like to have a discussion about this. Actually, I started a thread yesterday on exactly this topic. I found it kept coming up in a lot of different threads, so I thought starting a thread on the topic would at least get it under one roof, so to speak. Check it out when you can. Maybe we could have the discussion there as opposed to here. This thread is suppose to be about works, but no one seems to be sticking to the topic.
Just so we don't get carried away, works are not such things as baptism,works are the evidence to back up our confession of faith.
Being saved by grace does not mean "i'm all set now nothing else matters I have my ticket for heaven",the new creation was created for good works in the here and now on planet earth( where he has planted us). Eph 2:10
The works Jesus spoke of can be found in Matt 5-7 and those works when they are in our life,light up the world around and glorify our Father in Heaven.Matt 5:16.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To whom is the promise of salvation?...to those who believe on Christ. The promise is not to those who remain unsaved.
Notice what Christ says in the verses below:
John 6:37 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
It goes back to the declaration of His purpose in Matthew 1:21:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
These verses tie in well with 2 Peter 3:9. A question like this one requires quite a bit of searching into the Scriptures. We often rest with the "whosoever will" verses. This is fine, provided that we understand how anyone is able to come to Christ in the first place. Either God is sovereign in our salvation, or it is ultimately our decision that saves us.
If I am spiritually dead, by nature, then I know there is nothing I can do until God makes me alive...until He gives me that new heart and that new spirit...until I am regenerated and am given ears to hear. The moment I suggest that these things happen after I make my decision for Christ is when I have definitely misunderstood the Scriptures.
Very well stated...This is also my understanding...Tho if you are spiritually dead, you of course wouldn't know there is nothing you could do because you would not concern yourself with such foolishness...You mean you know now that when you were spiritually dead there was nothing you could have done...Just two cents...
Yes, this according to the Law...Jews already knew this is how to do it...However, Paul is building an arguement as to those that follow the Law are required to do the whole Law..However, he laters states by the Law no flesh shall be saved...He also goes on to explain how a man is saved, through Jeshua...If you pull those verses out of the context they are in, yes, it appears that he is preaching works, but if you read the whole letter you see the argument he is building against following the Law for Salvation, In other words, thinking you can save yourself through your works instead of through the Works of Jeshua...
If Paul was preaching that was according to the law in those verses then he was also preaching in those verses that God would render eternal life based on works. Obviously for Paul to say that - those works that are the basis for rendering life could not be based on the Law.
Just so we don't get carried away, works are not such things as baptism,works are the evidence to back up our confession of faith.
Being saved by grace does not mean "i'm all set now nothing else matters I have my ticket for heaven",the new creation was created for good works in the here and now on planet earth( where he has planted us). Eph 2:10
The works Jesus spoke of can be found in Matt 5-7 and those works when they are in our life,light up the world around and glorify our Father in Heaven.Matt 5:16.
We are saved by Grace through Faith. But dead faith (Faith without works) cannot access Grace. Remember Faith is the ACCESS to Grace (Approval).
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I did not change a Scripture...I am merely looking at it in context...Who is the author of the Letter, who is the audience he is speaking to, Is it a general statement aimed arbitrarily or is a specific statement aimed at a specific audience for that audiences benefit of strengthening of Faith...
Richard, you added the word "elect" to the verse. The word elect is not there. You cannot add or take away from God's word. It is wrong to do that. It is also dishonest.
You claim you are looking at the verse in context. Even that is not true.
Take a look at the context. The christians Peter was writing to were experiencing persecution in a variety of forms. Apparently there were scoffers who were saying, "Where is this coming he promised?"
Peter encourages them by telling them not to forget, "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
Then he says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
NOT WANTING ANYONE TO PERISH, BUT EVERYONE TO COME TO REPENTANCE.
Anyone and Everyone is inclusive. It is the unsaved.
The anyone and everyone certainly cannot include christians because they are already saved. They aren't the ones who are perishing.
God already knows who the elect are and that they will be saved. He doesn't need to wait for them. They're in! It's the unsaved who are perishing and need to come to repentance. It's not the elect. Besides, why would the elect have to repent? They're already saved.
Conclusion: You not only added to the word of God, you took it out of context to support adding the word "elect" to the verse.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Very well stated...This is also my understanding...Tho if you are spiritually dead, you of course wouldn't know there is nothing you could do because you would not concern yourself with such foolishness...You mean you know now that when you were spiritually dead there was nothing you could have done...Just two cents...
Where in the scriptures does it say we are "spiritually dead by nature?"
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