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Works are not required for eternal salvation. Paul is not contradicting himself in Romans 2:6-7. Paul has continually stressed that salvation is through faith, and not by works. Here in this passage of Romans 2:6-7, Paul is talking about the principle of judgment on the basis of works. Hypothetically speaking, if anyone could live a perfect life, which they can't, then God would give him eternal life because God judges according to what a person does. But since everone is tainted by the sin nature, it is impossible to be perfect. No one persists in doing good works.
Dr. C. I. Scofield put it like this.
3(2:7) In vv. 7 and 13 the cases are hypothetical. Paul is not teaching the possibility of salvation by works but is, rather, showing why all men without exception are lost. As he later states, no man has continued in well doing, nor is he a doer of the law (cp. 3:19-20). The means of justification for sinners, entirely by faith in Christ is set forth in 3:21-8:39.
New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Romans 2:7, p. 1212, 1213.
Do you understand what Paul is saying here. After saying this in Romans 2:6-7, he then says in Romans 3:10 ''There is none righteous, not even one; 11] There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12] All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.''
Compare Romans 2:7 with Romans 3:12.
Romans 2:7 'To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality.
BUT!!!
Romans 3:12 ...There is none who does good. There is not even one.
Paul was speaking hypothetically in Romans 2:7 and 13.
As for your references to James, I have already explained in the original post what James meant by his reference to faith and works. I need not go into it again here.
I also brought out the point in the original post that Jesus said there is but one work of God which one must do to obtain eternal life, and that is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Very good...I see Romans as Paul building up an explanation in the first few chapters of what Hawyaw expects from one to be saved by the Law...Then he lowers the boom by stating that none are righteous enough to please Hawyaw...So that would leave his audience with 'Then who can be saved?'...Then he goes on and explains how through the finished work of Jeshua...And I see him going even further explaining that our Faith and Repentance are not even of ourselves, that it is Hawyaw that does it all, we have no hand in it...Also, perceverence is not of us either...It is Hawyaw that brings us to fruit...We can do nothing with out HIM...
Jesus, Paul and James on faith and works.
People who do not understand what James meant when he talked about faith and works in James chapter 2, think that he contradicted what Paul said concerning those things. Legalists like to use James to promote works based salvation.
Paul taught that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone. The way he showed this is by contrasting faith and works.
RESPONSE:
Following your logic, Hitler, a baptized Catholic, was saved so long as he had faith, discounting what he did.
Isn't that rather absurd?
(Your posts are way too long. This probably limits the number who read them. Shorter posts would be in your interest).
But Faith without works is dead Faith...Good works follow Faith...There is a difference between Genuine Faith and False Faith...True Faith changes the heart of a man...False Faith does not and only appears outwardly for a season...
That's a good list. It cannot be more clear that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and not by any meritorious works on our part. Some legalists will attempt to distinquish between works of the law and works of God, claiming that you must do the works of God in addition to having faith in order to be saved. But as I mentioned in the original post, Jesus said that there was only one work of God that we must do to be eternally saved, and that one work of God was to BELIEVE in Him.
Didn't Paul argue that to those same type of folks in Hebrews, I think it was?...The Judaisers?...
Yes. Paul contradicted Jesus on this point, and was considered an apostate from Mosaic law by early Christians.
Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Itell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Which is what He did...And then offered Himself up to the Cross as a propitiation for OUR sins...There is no contradiction...Only balance....Because of what Jeshua did WE are credited with righteousness...He was credited as a Lawbreaker...Even though He was not...It is analogous to you being a law abiding citizen and your son goes and commits a horrendous crime and the Law says in order for Justice to happen someoe must pay for the crime...So you offer yourself up for your own son so that he does not have to pay the price...This is Grace...Your son does not deserve this consideration for what he has done, but, by Grace you offer yourself up in his place...The only difference here is that what Jeshua did is eternal what you did was temporal...
I think it's clear if we continue to live a life in sin it is very dangerous for our soul and produces thorns not fruit.
God wants us to produce fruit.
"But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Hebrews 6:8
"For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes." Luke 6:44
God identifies his sheep in Christ as those bearing fruit. This whole existence is described as a harvest. You have the wheat (sheep)/saved and the tares (goat)/unsaved.
The goal in life is to abide in the vine (Christ) and bare fruits of the spirit. The scriptures say if there is only thorns and briers the branch (soul) is rejected.
True faith produces fruits unto salvation. It's not a "work" but the spirit guiding our choices in life.
We need to look at if from God's perspective. Christ did it all. We accept God's free gift of salvation by living in what he says in his word.
No one can accept the Gift unless Hawyaw has regenerated their spirit...Unto belief...
I believe we are saved by grace through faith. I believe Jesus died on the cross for me. Many false religions believe this also (mormons, jw's, 7th Day Adventists)
Are they saved?
I guess the question you're really asking, Katie, is must a person's understanding of every single conceivable doctrine or religious truth be correct in order for him to be saved. If we are, in fact, saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, then they answer to that question would be "Of course." You're not going to find two Christians even on this forum who agree on absolutely everything. If God's only going to save those whose understanding was 100% accurate, Heaven's going to be a pretty lonely place. By the way, I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but you and I actually agree on a great many doctrines that you disagree with many mainstream Christians on this forum about. We see eye-to-eye on a great many issues, and yet my religion is the one you label as "false."
That kind of reply is exactly what I meant. Thanks for proving my point.
Give it up Finn. You cannot prove by example that we are saved by faith alone. All you can do is cite scripture that YOU i nterpret to say we are saved by faith alone. But you can't prove it by example. No one was or is ever saved by faith alone.
Faith Alone is Dead Faith.
Faith without works is dead.
The only "work" that God requires is to believe. John 6:29
But Jesus also says: Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (See Mark 16:16)
So baptism is neccessary (John 3:5) but not absolutly neccessary ( Mark 16:16 and John 6:29)
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Why does Jeshua not stress the 'baptized' part in His second statement?...If in fact baptism is a requirement?...
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
See, no baptism required...Strange though, Paul would tell him that if HE believed that not only HIM but his household would be saved also...Because of HIS act of Faith?...
I guess the question you're really asking, Katie, is must a person's understanding of every single conceivable doctrine or religious truth be correct in order for him to be saved. If we are, in fact, saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, then they answer to that question would be "Of course." You're not going to find two Christians even on this forum who agree on absolutely everything. If God's only going to save those whose understanding was 100% accurate, Heaven's going to be a pretty lonely place. By the way, I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but you and I actually agree on a great many doctrines that you disagree with many mainstream Christians on this forum about. We see eye-to-eye on a great many issues, and yet my religion is the one you label as "false."
Yes Katz, I have noticed that some of what you believe is the same as what I believe. But you get off the narrow road and onto the wide road when you add to God's word the book of mormon and the articles of faith. That is why I say false religion, and I pray you will toss those things out the window and get back to the word of God only. I say it with all due respect.
Sorry Katz. I believe you are a good and sincere person, but mormonism is a false religion because they go beyond the word , and that word is what will judge you in the end, not me.
Then you agree that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation.
In a situation where someone comes to Belief in Christ and then is killed, tragically... That's up to God, but according to my understanding, God knows our hearts. He knows us better than we know ourselves. he knows whether or not that faith was a living faith (one that would grow had the tragic event not taken place), or one that was to yield no fruits (dead).
Your example is not the norm. it is an exception and That is to be left up to God.
We are to seek the lord while he may be found. your example, the individual was seeking the Lord, but his journey had only just begun before its end.
I understand your point. its a good point. for a situation like that.
But the scriptures i quoted are still available for comment.
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