Fundamentalist vs. Universalist...let's call a truce! (Savior, food, reason)
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"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil; I am the Lord, Who does ALL these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
God locks up all together in unbelief, that He should have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32)
Isaiah 45:7 shows us WHO creates evil, Romans 11:32 shows us the purpose of evil: contrast. Without sin and evil, we can never know the sweet deliverance of God’s mercy and grace. Not only does He create evil, but He brings evil upon us:
"He is wise and will bring evil" (Isaiah 31:2).
It says; God WILL BRING EVIL.
God does not sit back and hope evil happens. Rather, He actively makes it happen. These three passages tell us that God is not merely allowing evil to happen. God is actively bringing it for the eventual good of His creation.
"By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens; HIS HAND hath formed the crooked serpent." (Job 26:13)
"Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Genesis 3:1).
Also, John tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning....." (John 8:44)
The beginning of what? John further goes on to tell us that lying is the devil's very nature:
".....When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
What is "natural" to him means that his intrinsic nature (what he IS - how he was made to be - from the beginning) is to lie and to murder. That is the devil's NATURE - what he is made of.
In regards to Isa. 45:7 the KJV translated rahor as evil. While the word can be translated as evil, it depends on the context. It can also be rendered: calamity, adversity, misery, trouble etc. That's why most of the other translations use the word:calamity.
In this context it should be rendered as calamity. Why? The passage is showing contrasts: light/darkness, peace/no peace, and well being/calamity.
And here:"He is wise and will bring evil" (Isaiah 31:2).
"evil" in this context should be be evil doers.
Now in regards to Job 26 while the word serpent is the same as the one in Gen. 3, however if you read the sentence in context, it's speaking of the 'heavens' and the crooked serpent is referring to a Constellation. [also called:Serpens or Ophiuchus].
You mis-spoke both times brother, for you misrepresent what I believe.
Just because my understanding of omnipotent is different then yours does not mean I do not believe God is omnipotent.
People need to get over themselves with the thinking that if one does not agree with them on something, they state that the one in disagreement does not believe in such and such.
It simply is not the truth and it is baring false witness against your brother.
pneuma, I mis-spoke about omnipotent - I meant to say omniscient. I did not misspeak when I said you don't believe God is omniscient, unless you have changed your position on it.
Omniscience means God knows all things, including what will happen in the future. You have said previously that God does not know what we are having for breakfast tomorrow, nor when He created the universe, did He know that Adam would sin or that Satan would rebel.
I was just informing Iluin as it helps to understand where a person is coming from. Especially on something as fundamental as omniscience. It completely changes a persons perspective.
Yet the scriptures state that the seed that was sown was good, and as a good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit one should be able to understand that what God created was good.
Yet your own explanation says that the good fruit God created became corrupted. By what? God created everything.
Confusion
No matter how you slice it, something that God created led to the state we are in now - corruption.
Quote:
Lego I already explained it as well as I can in post 315.
It didn't explain it for me.
How did Satan create Himself? There is no physical or spiritual entity that exists that God did not create.
Why did man disobey? You say man was good fruit. Yet this good fruit disobeyed.
Why did man fall? Some force caused man to fall, like gravity causes an apple to fall? Who created that force that caused man to fall? Was it Satan? Who created Satan? Who created the entity that became Satan?
And yet Jesus never sinned, nor had sin sowed within, yet had the full knowledge of God.
Jesus was already the perfect image of God. Man is not. So Jesus already knew all these things you list, because He has perfect knowledge of good and evil, just like the father.
You are confusing having evil in you with having knowledge of evil in you.
From my perspective, you have built a clever straw-man here.
Are needed within man for man to come to the full knowledge of God then the reverse must also be correct which would be Jesus did not have the full knowledge of God as He never had these things within Him.
You guys go on and on about God creating all thing as per Col.1:15-17 and all things mean all things to you, which include sin and evil.
Yet when this scripture
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For ALL THINGS originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen! (Romans 11:36)
states That all things come from God through Christ and will return to God all of a sudden "all things" does not mean all things.
There is simply NO sin in God or Christ for sin to come from Him.
God did not create murders brother, murder come from the apple that fell from the tree not from God.
Yes Jesus is the way, but you only really look at Him as the end of God's way for you place sin and all the things I mentioned above as a PART of the ways of God and Jesus NEVER had sin within Him.
You state Jesus is the way, but then you take your eyes off of Him and look at man and conclude that which man does are the ways of God.
A few points.
As I explained, when it says God created "all things" it is referring to all physical and spiritual things. Not concepts or truths. I explained that above but maybe you ignored it or didn't read it.
Did God create "2+2=4"? No. 2+2=4 is a truth, which is self-existant.
The concepts of sin and evil are truths is the same manner that "2+2=4" are truths.
In the same manner, neither did God create sin or the concept of evil.
However God does foreknow about and allow about evil circumstances. And when you are omniscient that also means this equivalent to saying He brought about evil circumstances. That is what it means when we are talking about creating evil. Not creating the concept of evil.
The primary example would be the sacrifice of Christ Himself. God purposed the sacrifice of His own son, which viewed in isolation would be a very great evil, yet viewed in the grand scheme of things is the very instrument which ultimately leads to the salvation of all. GOOD.
It is foolish to suggest rape came from Christ and will return to Christ.
Just like it is foolish to suggest "2+2=4" came from Christ and will return to Christ.
It seems like you are building a straw man case instead of trying to understand.
Romans 11:36 and Col 1:16-20 etc are talking about all things in this universe. It is not talking about truths. God does not "create" truth. This would be synonymous with changing or bending the truth which is creating a lie. God cannot lie and thus God cannot change the truth. Could God make 2+2=3? No, that would be a lie. So those things are not created. They are just self-existent.
So look honestly at your post - it does not apply to how I see things.
If Jesus Christ demonstrated God on earth, where was the demonstration of evil and darkness in his life ?. Even the scribe and Pharisee got of lightly in my opinion, if it was me I would at least shot a bit of literal fire and brimstone at them.
If Jesus Christ demonstrated God on earth, where was the demonstration of evil and darkness in his life ?. Even the scribe and Pharisee got of lightly in my opinion.
There is no evil in Christ (or God). Only knowledge of evil.
There is no evil in Christ (or God). Only knowledge of evil.
Yet he represented all that God is Lego.
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