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Old 09-09-2015, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,920,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Read the Acts of the Apostles. It banished the old Jewish laws but kept only 3 or 4. Christians do not have to follow all the old Jewish laws anymore.
Christians don't follow ANY laws AS laws, but do what is appropriate to show the concern for the well-being of everyone. Laws ar foe those who are NOT committed to that practice.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:59 AM
 
4,686 posts, read 6,139,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Christians don't follow ANY laws AS laws, but do what is appropriate to show the concern for the well-being of everyone. Laws ar foe those who are NOT committed to that practice.

Loving God is a law of God, Duet 6:5
Deuteronomy 6:5(NKJV)
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.


Loving your neighbor is a law of God, Lev 19:18
Leviticus 19:18 (NKJV)
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.


You can fight it all day long, but God has laws Christians are required to follow. All through out the bible God says to keep his commandments, so if you want to refer to them as laws or commandments or whatever makes you happy, you are still required to follow them as a believer, if you truly Love God.



Jesus sums all the laws purpose into set basic principles, but he doesnt say everything is canceled out for these 2, they are just a summary.

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV) 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”



Paul shows the purpose of the law as well.
Galatians 5:14(NKJV) 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,920,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Jesus sums all the laws purpose into set basic principles, but he doesnt say everything is canceled out for these 2, they are just a summary.
Try one more time: fulfilling the PURPOSE does not require following the letter, and often requires violating it. It is not about Laws or enforcing, you simply don't make a LAW to love, it is not within the scope of LAW. At best, putting it that way illustrates the difference between LAW and COMMITMENT.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Read the Acts of the Apostles. It banished the old Jewish laws but kept only 3 or 4. Christians do not have to follow all the old Jewish laws anymore.
You are wrong about that...
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,920,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You are wrong about that...
Well, finally one of your little crypric remarks is correct! No "3 or 4 " of the laws were kept AS law, since law is not the basis of the New Covenant. Congratullations on getting one right.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:19 AM
 
4,345 posts, read 2,165,623 times
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If we could be saved by following the law Christ died for nothing..........He died in our place because not one of us can keep the law.....He died and now offers to make us free from sin by what He did for us on that cross........a perfect finished work......and now we believe the gospel of grace and receive the free gift..........the Holy Spirit indwells as a guarantee and since all of our sins are paid for we have an eternal life that can never be taken away...........

Our job now is to simply thank Jesus for what He has done and spread the good news of the gospel..........
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:05 AM
 
23,654 posts, read 17,511,041 times
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http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com...sh,-bible.html

The Old Testament is full of laws. The rabbis say there are 613 of them, to be precise. Some of these laws are very general and apply to morality and human relations as such, while others are of a ceremonial nature and have to do with the requirements of the Levitical law of Old Testament Judaism.

The moral laws are binding on all men everywhere and at all times; examples of the moral laws are "Thou shalt have no other gods besides me", "honor thy mother and father", and "Do not hate your brother in your heart." The ceremonial or Levitical laws, on the other hand, are binding only on Old Testament Israelites and pertain to the nature of Old Testament worship and discipline. Examples of levitical law are "Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk", "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material", and "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear". [2]

Since the moral laws have as their subject human nature as such, they are not abolished with the coming of the Lord and the inauguration of the New Covenant; in fact, they are elevated and perfected. Our Lord demands stricter adherence to the moral law in the New Covenant than in the Old: "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart." [3]

The ceremonial laws, on the other hand, have as their subject the worshiper of the Old Covenant (i.e., pre-Christian Jews), not human nature as such. These laws necessarily pass away with the ending of the Old Covenant. These laws are transitory by their very nature and reflect the temporary character of the Old Covenant itself. Thus, when the Old Covenant passes away after the coming of Christ, these ceremonial laws no longer have a purpose and are no longer binding on Christians. This was the approach the Apostles took at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) when they judged that Gentiles did not have to observe circumcision or Jewish dietary law.

Another classic example of this is the Old Testament prohibition against eating pork and shellfish. Since this pertained to the ceremonial law, Christians have always been considered free from these prohibitions. This is why St. Paul says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths" (Col. 2:16) and why our Lord teaches "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matt. 15:11). This is why Christians have always eaten pork and shellfish with a clean conscience, despite Old Testament prohibitions. It has always been understood that these prohibitions lost their force with the passing away of the Old Covenant.

The crux of the whole issue is whether the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual actions belong to the moral or the ceremonial law. Because sexuality has to do with the basic nature of man, and because of the moral dimension of all sexual actions, the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexuality have always been included in the moral law. Thus, they are applicable at all times and places and will never pass away. This is why there is really no contradiction or hypocrisy in Christians condemning homosexuality while gleefully eating shellfish and pork. Homosexual acts are always wrong, under every circumstance. This is why the Catholic Catechism says:

"Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." [4]

The Church Fathers understood it this way as well, which is why their writings are replete with unequivocal condemnations of homosexual actions, all while affirming that Christians are not bound by Levitical laws regarding dietary restrictions and other ceremonial obligations.

Note the Catechism reference to Tradition. Some Old Testament scholars have argued that this division of Old Testament laws into moral and levitical is arbitrary, imposed from outside the text, since the Old Testament itself does not give any indication which laws are ceremonial and which laws are moral. This is not entirely true; if we accept New Testament data, there is quite a bit to help us sort the laws out. But by and large, it is Catholic Tradition that offers the definitive clarification on these questions. This is why we cannot throw out tradition and expect to maintain the Christian faith in its integrity.

In short, the prohibition against shellfish belongs to the ceremonial law, which is no longer binding on Christians, whilst prohibitions on homosexual acts belong to the moral law and are always binding. Please remember this article and repost whenever you run across the ignorant shellfish argument.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:08 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,223,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Homosexuality, Shellfish and the Bible

The Old Testament is full of laws. The rabbis say there are 613 of them, to be precise. Some of these laws are very general and apply to morality and human relations as such, while others are of a ceremonial nature and have to do with the requirements of the Levitical law of Old Testament Judaism.

The moral laws are binding on all men everywhere and at all times; examples of the moral laws are "Thou shalt have no other gods besides me", "honor thy mother and father", and "Do not hate your brother in your heart." The ceremonial or Levitical laws, on the other hand, are binding only on Old Testament Israelites and pertain to the nature of Old Testament worship and discipline. Examples of levitical law are "Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk", "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material", and "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear". [2]

Since the moral laws have as their subject human nature as such, they are not abolished with the coming of the Lord and the inauguration of the New Covenant; in fact, they are elevated and perfected. Our Lord demands stricter adherence to the moral law in the New Covenant than in the Old: "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart." [3]

The ceremonial laws, on the other hand, have as their subject the worshiper of the Old Covenant (i.e., pre-Christian Jews), not human nature as such. These laws necessarily pass away with the ending of the Old Covenant. These laws are transitory by their very nature and reflect the temporary character of the Old Covenant itself. Thus, when the Old Covenant passes away after the coming of Christ, these ceremonial laws no longer have a purpose and are no longer binding on Christians. This was the approach the Apostles took at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) when they judged that Gentiles did not have to observe circumcision or Jewish dietary law.

Another classic example of this is the Old Testament prohibition against eating pork and shellfish. Since this pertained to the ceremonial law, Christians have always been considered free from these prohibitions. This is why St. Paul says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths" (Col. 2:16) and why our Lord teaches "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matt. 15:11). This is why Christians have always eaten pork and shellfish with a clean conscience, despite Old Testament prohibitions. It has always been understood that these prohibitions lost their force with the passing away of the Old Covenant.

The crux of the whole issue is whether the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual actions belong to the moral or the ceremonial law. Because sexuality has to do with the basic nature of man, and because of the moral dimension of all sexual actions, the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexuality have always been included in the moral law. Thus, they are applicable at all times and places and will never pass away. This is why there is really no contradiction or hypocrisy in Christians condemning homosexuality while gleefully eating shellfish and pork. Homosexual acts are always wrong, under every circumstance. This is why the Catholic Catechism says:

"Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." [4]

The Church Fathers understood it this way as well, which is why their writings are replete with unequivocal condemnations of homosexual actions, all while affirming that Christians are not bound by Levitical laws regarding dietary restrictions and other ceremonial obligations.

Note the Catechism reference to Tradition. Some Old Testament scholars have argued that this division of Old Testament laws into moral and levitical is arbitrary, imposed from outside the text, since the Old Testament itself does not give any indication which laws are ceremonial and which laws are moral. This is not entirely true; if we accept New Testament data, there is quite a bit to help us sort the laws out. But by and large, it is Catholic Tradition that offers the definitive clarification on these questions. This is why we cannot throw out tradition and expect to maintain the Christian faith in its integrity.

In short, the prohibition against shellfish belongs to the ceremonial law, which is no longer binding on Christians, whilst prohibitions on homosexual acts belong to the moral law and are always binding. Please remember this article and repost whenever you run across the ignorant shellfish argument.

Please quote and REPOST this whenever you hear that ignorant HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN argument..


The Clobber Verses

Let me just say right off the top, three of the verses that are sometimes considered clobber verses have nothing to do with the question of homosexuality. Putting Genesis 2:21-25, Deuteronomy 23:17 and Jude 1:6-7 in the category of anti-gay verses is nothing more than an attempt to beef up the number of verses that are supposedly “against” homosexuality. They have nothing to do with it. So, I am simply going to ignore them. If someone attempts to use them as proof of the “abomination” of homosexuality, I suggest you simply ignore them as well.


Clobbering "Biblical" gay bashing
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,179,752 times
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I believe that even the moral laws have been canceled and replaced by a new and living way.

The law says "thou shalt not commit adultery" while grace shows you how to love your wife.

See the difference? The law says "no", but grace says "yes, you're powered by my spirit".
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:55 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,920,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I believe that even the moral laws have been canceled and replaced by a new and living way.

The law says "thou shalt not commit adultery" while grace shows you how to love your wife.

See the difference? The law says "no", but grace says "yes, you're powered by my spirit".
Bears repeating, but no "rep." too soon and all that
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