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Clearly the New Testament message is against universalism. As the Son of God said in Mat. 7, “Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus teaches us in Mat. 10, to “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” In the parable of the wheat and tares (Mat. 13:40-42), Jesus says of the tares, “cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” and explains that this is how the judgement shall be. Notice the tares do not come back out of the fire.
Jesus Christ is responsible for the doctrine of eternal punishment. Jesus quite often makes specific references to Hell and eternal damnation. Jesus, the Lord of love, spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. He said that Hell is a place where “the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not” (Mark 9:48). Just as Heaven is more wonderful than symbols can picture it, so Hell is more terrible than its symbols can describe it. If Hell is not fire, it is something far worse. No wonder Jesus warned against it so often and so emphatically! Whether or not I like it or even understand it, I believe it. If all men will be universally saved, what is the significance of Jesus statement, “Narrow is the way which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it” (Mat. 7:14)?
Dear Dennis, Jesus never spoke in King James English and never used the word "eternal."
Dennis, I know you really want to please your Lord. It shows in how you want to defend what He said.
But Jesus in not responsible for the doctrine of eternal torment. He could have used the Greek word aperantos to tell the people that in no uncertain words that torment would be endless. The only place in the whole new testament this word is used is in 1 Timothy 1:4 when Paul wrote about "endless genealogies." It was the Roman Church under Constantine who still held to his paganism instilled paganism into the early church in the 6th century. When he had a huge church built half of it was for paganism and half for Christians.
There are some ideas you propound above which are easily disproven. For instance, you state Jesus spoke more about hell then heaven. An easy search of this shows "hell" in the KJV as being used 17 times in the Gospels and Acts. But heaven is used 168 times in the Gospels and Acts.
Jesus did not say hell was "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. He said that concerning Gehenna which will be a trash dump to the south of Jerusalem.
Jesus said to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in GEHENNA. But how destroyed is destroyed? Jesus told His disciples to destroy their soul and if they did they'd get them back (Matt.16:25).
He also said "Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." They destroyed His body by killing Him. But His destruction lasted only three days.
The narrow way Jesus was referring to which few found leading to life was the law of Moses. He was not talking about believing in Him.
Where Jesus said some would be cast into a furnace of fire, He was not talking about hell. When Israel was held 400 years in Egypt they were held in a furnace of fire. Were they in hell for 400 years? Was Egypt Hell? Was Egypt a literal furnace? Was fire burning all the Israelites during their stay in Egypt? No. It is just concerning fiery trials.
In Daniel 7:14 it was written that Christ's kingdom will be an eonian kingdom. In Luke 1:33 the angel and Luke translated "eonian" in Daniel 7:14 as "for the eons." No eon is eternal. The Bible says all the eons end. Therefore all eonian chastening is "for the eons" and therefore cannot be eternal.
I'm sure you really don't want to misrepresent your Lord and what He said and meant. I'm sure you will take this study into account so you are even more in line with what the Lord actually said.
I guess it depends on what the definition of "is", is.
It's the result of an improper hermunutic approach. Oddly enough you comment is pretty much spot on. However I would have used a different word as an example.
Spring into Spring. Does it mean the "season into the season" or the "moving quickly into moving quickly", or does it mean "move quickly into a season"? Obviously the later is correct. As you can see often a word used twice, spelled the same, in the same sentence, means two entirely different things.
My wife is so sweet to make sweet tea for us. (you better not taste my wife)
The children played as the music played. (can you hear the children or has the music gotten into the toy box)
When you hear the bell ring you may put on your ring.
I read my book as I waited to book my flight.
My child likes to watch me put on my watch.
It is time we decide to be the kind of Christian that is kind to each other. (Lord help me to be the kind kind of Christian! Amen.)
I was flat out determined to change that flat tire before someone ran over me and left me a flat spot on the road.
Most women don't like to disclose their age in this age of vanity! (What does age mean?)
If you apply only one meaning to a word every time you see it and disregard it's use and various true meanings, you end up with a situation that Paul warned us about.
2 Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before God not to fight about words; this is in no way profitable and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
Originally Posted by Eusebius God is not the everlasting God. He does not last for an ever or for an age. When the ages end, God will continue to exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
From the OP...
The red says God is not everlasting.
The blue says God is everlasting.
I guess it depends on what the definition of "is", is.
It's easy to take a quote out of context, isn't it? It actually depends on what the definition of eonian is.
God is not the everlasting God. He does not last for an ever or for an age. He is called "the eonian God" in Romans 16:26. The eonian kingdom of Daniel is interpreted by Luke as "for the eons." God being the eonian God is "God for the eons." This does not tell us how long God lives but tells us His relationship to the eons. The Bible says that the eons end. When they end God will cease being the eonian God because there will no longer be eons to be God over. He will then be God All in all. Just because the eons end does not mean God's life will end.
For instance, in Revelation it states that "they live with Christ a thousand years." Will Christ and those with Him automatically die when the 1000 years eon ends? It does say they live a thousand years. But then we find them living with Christ after the 1000 years end when they are with Christ on the new earth.
It's easy to take a quote out of context, isn't it? It actually depends on what the definition of eonian is.
God is not the everlasting God. He does not last for an ever or for an age. He is called "the eonian God" in Romans 16:26. The eonian kingdom of Daniel is interpreted by Luke as "for the eons." God being the eonian God is "God for the eons." This does not tell us how long God lives but tells us His relationship to the eons. The Bible says that the eons end. When they end God will cease being the eonian God because there will no longer be eons to be God over. He will then be God All in all. Just because the eons end does not mean God's life will end.
For instance, in Revelation it states that "they live with Christ a thousand years." Will Christ and those with Him automatically die when the 1000 years eon ends? It does say they live a thousand years. But then we find them living with Christ after the 1000 years end when they are with Christ on the new earth.
Just so I know - what is your preferred term that would equal my meaning of eternal?
God will never cease to exist. He is unending with regards to time. What is THAT term?
It's easy to take a quote out of context, isn't it? It actually depends on what the definition of eonian is.
God is not the everlasting God. He does not last for an ever or for an age. He is called "the eonian God" in Romans 16:26. The eonian kingdom of Daniel is interpreted by Luke as "for the eons." God being the eonian God is "God for the eons." This does not tell us how long God lives but tells us His relationship to the eons. The Bible says that the eons end. When they end God will cease being the eonian God because there will no longer be eons to be God over. He will then be God All in all. Just because the eons end does not mean God's life will end.
For instance, in Revelation it states that "they live with Christ a thousand years." Will Christ and those with Him automatically die when the 1000 years eon ends? It does say they live a thousand years. But then we find them living with Christ after the 1000 years end when they are with Christ on the new earth.
Clearly the New Testament message is against universalism. As the Son of God said in Mat. 7, “Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus teaches us in Mat. 10, to “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” In the parable of the wheat and tares (Mat. 13:40-42), Jesus says of the tares, “cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” and explains that this is how the judgement shall be. Notice the tares do not come back out of the fire.
Jesus Christ is responsible for the doctrine of eternal punishment. Jesus quite often makes specific references to Hell and eternal damnation. Jesus, the Lord of love, spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. He said that Hell is a place where “the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not” (Mark 9:48). Just as Heaven is more wonderful than symbols can picture it, so Hell is more terrible than its symbols can describe it. If Hell is not fire, it is something far worse. No wonder Jesus warned against it so often and so emphatically! Whether or not I like it or even understand it, I believe it. If all men will be universally saved, what is the significance of Jesus statement, “Narrow is the way which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it” (Mat. 7:14)?
A couple of facts about the worm/maggot.
They clean the wounds by dissolving dead and infected tissue
They disinfect the wound (kill bacteria);
They speed the rate of healing. on that
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
STRONGS : aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). see GREEK for 165
Thank God for His free gift of Eternal, perpetual, eternal, for ever, everlasting Life!
The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. "Forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
Dennis, this site does a nice job in explaining the true biblical intent of how this Greek word is used in those places that speak of these things as "eternal".
"It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used".
It wasn't my personal intention to pick on or point to any specific group of people, but Matt's article ends with this observation, as this is the circle where this teaching is predominantly found. I'm really not prepared to engage in a discussion about eternal punishment, but the contrary position also holds to an idea that every single human being will eventually end up saved, which is even more of an incorrect position if we base our understanding on the Bible.
Many people have not, and will not come to Christ; and it is quite clear from Scripture that coming to Christ is the only means by which one must be saved. It then becomes important to understand what it means to come to Christ. Many people have been "fond" of a lot of what Jesus has said and taught. And these are beautiful teachings. I believe many in the Universalist camp will agree with Jesus about how "everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
This is a very critical teaching of Christ/Scripture, and characterizes the state of man, by nature, and highlights the reason why man will not "seek after God" as God requires. Note below (in the Old Testament, as well):
Ps 10:4
4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;
God is in none of his thoughts.
I believe that part of the issue is a lack of agreement in understanding the nature of salvation, and why it is we actually need salvation. We are, indeed, in trouble with God because of our sins. And without even getting into the eternity issue, God also speaks of this matter in terms of His wrath. Even a verse like John 3:36 brings this out:
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him".
One of the scariest passages in the Bible (IMHO) is Rev 6:15-17 (below):
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
There is so much more that can be shared here. But the point I really wish to make for our Universalist friends is that, contrary to what it might appear, those who preach the Gospel by speaking of hell or wrath are not being (or certainly should not be) mean or cold in doing so. In fact, they are simply trying to tell the truth about what is is we are ultimately saved from. I believe it is what the Bible refers to as "the whole counsel of God".
It is only when the hearer is given eyes to see and a heart to understand the truth about himself and his need of salvation that he will truly cry out to God for mercy and embrace the Savior with all his being. This is a consequence of the work of grace that God does in the sinner who is being drawn to Christ, which is also accompanied by a new attitude about sin, and a consequent desire to serve God, which was previously not possible, as now the "saved" sinner is indwelt by the Spirit of God, yet another glorious result of God's saving work.
If we truly love our fellow man we will want to tell him the truth as we share the Gospel of God's saving grace through Jesus Christ. I realize that there are those who do not come across this way, and that is a shame. May it never be that any of us give the impression that "I am saved and you're not and you're going to hell".... that would be a tragedy. We must also realize that there will be those who have convinced themselves that they are saved, but may not have actually been born of God. Here is one last (scary) passage:
Jesus told some of his hearers:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will (Matt 7:21-23)
We all so desperately need God.... every second of the day. Praise God that He is a merciful and loving God. As His (saved) children, we are assured that we can come to Him with confidence. The references are too many at this point in the post. But we, indeed, have "boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him[Christ] (Eph 3:12).
Just so I know - what is your preferred term that would equal my meaning of eternal?
God will never cease to exist. He is unending with regards to time. What is THAT term?
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
And not ONCE are any of these words which carry the meaning of endlessness used in the judgments of God.
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However I would have used a different word as an example. 
on that