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Once you are saved, your sins are forgiven and no power on earth or in heavens will take your salvation away from you.
Romans 8:38 neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Your question about eternal salvation is a very important question, and I hope you will be able to ignore the off-topic distractions brought about by the teachers of "universal salvation". They make a hobby out of derailing every salvation related thread into a discussion about something else.
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Originally Posted by SAAN
So Mike, if from this point forward, you decided you were going to be a serial killer and murdered 10 people and had no regrets and lost your life as well in the middle of all this and never repented, do you think you would still go to heaven because by grace you are saved?
By grace through faith [in Christ Jesus]. In answer to your question, Yes!!!
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I know we are saved by faith, but the bible also says no murders shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.
There is a difference between inhabiting the kingdom and inheriting the kingdom. While a believer can lose rewards, he cannot lose eternal life. Your salvation is neither gained or maintained by you. It is all the work of God. You simply receive the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ. It is God who maintains your salvation. Not you.
Do you not yet realize that there is absolutely no sin that you can commit for which Jesus did not already pay the penalty? You may say, but what about the sin of unbelief? All sin was judged at the cross, but no sin is forgiven until one places his faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
If God was going to condemn you for the sins you commit as a believer there would have been no point in Jesus to have already been condemned in your place for those sins. And as for the unbeliever, though he dies in his sins, he is condemned not for his sins which Christ already paid for, but rather he is condemned on the basis of his righteousness - on the basis of his deeds (Revelation 20:11-15). God can only reject relative human righteousness because it does not have any compatability with His own perfect and absolute righteousness.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-03-2013 at 10:51 AM..
I've never understood the concept of Saved from the fundamentalists. I mean, if you are saved, then why not immediately jump off the highest building you can find and end it right then?
God leaves the believer in this world after salvation so that we can advance spiritually to a mature status. When a person believes in Christ he is entered into the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. The believer plays a role in that spiritual conflict. Once the believer dies physically and is in the presence of the Lord he is taken out of the spiritual conflict. God decides when to remove us from this world. Not us.
Paul clearly taught that once we are in Christ, we are sealed until the day of redemption. But he also taught that we have to 'work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling.' John taught that those that go away from us prove that they were never of us in to begin with. Some will say that all this means we must strive to do the good we know we aught to do and live a holy life, otherwise we can loose our salvation. Others on the other hand say that this teaches our assurance of salvation but that, while we might sin, we must constantly die to ourselves daily through the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Both sides of the issue bombard the topic with scripture and accuse the other of twisting, rewording and downright lies. You will have to read for yourself and see which teaching you feel has the greatest merit. As for me, I believe that the Scriptures are very clear about the preservation of the saints outside of their ability to remain saved. Not one of those that the Father has given into the Son's hands shall be lost, but Christ will raise them on the last day. That's our promise of eternal salvation right there!
So a saved person can go out and murder rape and kill and will go to heaven because they are saved, but the innocent victim they killed that was a unbeliever will go to hell because they didnt accept Jesus as their savior yet?
Person A: accepted Jesus, but somewhere in his Christan walk starts to kill people with no regrets. So this person gets external life
Person B: has not accepted Jesus, starts to kill people with no regrets. This person goes to hell for the same sins of Person A
Come on folks this makes no sense, if you start raping, murdering, become a bank robber, cheat on you spouse and commit adultery over and over again after you have been saved and you know these sins are wrong according to scripture, but continue to keep doing them, this is now a lifestyle, not just a sin when you can repent and turn from them. If you die living these lifestyle dont repent of those sins, you will not go to heaven.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus he will be in paradise for believing in him, but what it he survived and they took him off the cross and he goes back to being a thief, do you really think he would get eternal life?
Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
So a saved person can go out and murder rape and kill and will go to heaven because they are saved, but the innocent victim they killed that was a unbeliever will go to hell because they didnt accept Jesus as their savior yet?
Person A: accepted Jesus, but somewhere in his Christan walk starts to kill people with no regrets. So this person gets external life
Person B: has not accepted Jesus, starts to kill people with no regrets. This person goes to hell for the same sins of Person A
As I said in post #71, the answer is yes. Your sins are not an issue in salvation because Jesus already paid the penalty for any sin you will ever commit in your pre-salvation and post-salvation life. You cannot be condemned for your personal sins because Jesus was already condemned in your place for your personal sins. If Hitler accepted Jesus as Savior, say when he was very young, and before his later crimes, than he is in heaven at this very moment. Now I don't know whether he was a believer in Christ or not. But if he was then he has eternal life.
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Come on folks this makes no sense, if you start raping, murdering, become a bank robber, cheat on you spouse and commit adultery over and over again after you have been saved and you know these sins are wrong according to scripture, but continue to keep doing them, this is now a lifestyle, not just a sin when you can repent and turn from them. If you die living these lifestyle dont repent of those sins, you will not go to heaven.
It makes perfect sense because of the reasons that I have already stated. Refer back also to posts #65 and 66.
Look. When a person believes on Christ, God imputes His very own perfect righteousness to that person and then declares him justified. From that moment on, God sees His own perfect righteousness in that believer regardless of how that believer lives his life. And it is on the basis of the fact that the believer has God's own righteousness imputed or credited to his account, as well as the fact that he possesses God's own eternal life, that he is qualifed to live in the presence of God forever.
The believer is disciplined in time for his sins and he can lose eternal rewards, but he cannot lose his salvation and be eternally condemned for his sins.
It needs to be understood that our own personal sins wever NEVER imputed to us for condemnation in the first place. We were born already under condemnation because of Adam's original sin. OUR personal sins were placed on Jesus as He hung on the cross. He is the one who took the punishment for our sins. Not us.
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The thief on the cross was told by Jesus he will be in paradise for believing in him, but what it he survived and they took him off the cross and he goes back to being a thief, do you really think he would get eternal life?
Again, 'Yes!!!'
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Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
This is not a reference to eternal punishment, but to temporal punishment. The writer of Hebrews is not thinking of the lake of fire. There are many forms of divine retribution which can fall on a believer which are worse than immediate death. For instance, Jeremiah wrote about the punishment inflicted on Jerusalem in Lamentations 4:6-11.
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1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
As I already said, there is a difference between inhabiting or being in the kingdom of God, and inheriting the kingdom of God. The issue is one of rewards. Not of salvation.
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Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Same answer as above.
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Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€
Scriptures speak for itself.
One viewpoint on Revelation 21:8 is that it is talking about unbelievers with regard to their sins here and now.
Another view is that it refers to the eternal sinfulness of unbelievers (See John 8:24). Unbelievers die in a state of sinfulness and remain sinners forever. Not that they are condemned on the basis of their sins because Jesus was already judged for them. They are condemned on the basis of their human righteousness (Revelation 20:11-15) which can only produce human good. Yet, they remain in a state of sinfulness.
And yet another viewpoint is that it is the disobedient believer's rewards (his 'part' - meros - share, portion, part, inheritance) which will be burned up in the lake of fire. This would be in line with 1 Corinthians 3:15 in which the believer's works which are shown to be 'wood, hay and straw' are burned up, though the believer himself is saved. So in this view, the reference is to the believer who always sins and never acknowledges those sins having his part or share of the inheritance - his rewards burned up in the lake of fire. That viewpoint however would seem to conflict with the parable in Luke 19 in which the worthless slave's mina was taken from him and given to the slave who had the ten menas. Then again, you can't build a doctrine on a parable.
Yes, Scripture does speak for itself, and Scripture says the the believer is sealed unto the day of redemption. And you are not strong enough to break what God has sealed.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-03-2013 at 02:03 PM..
So a saved person can go out and murder rape and kill and will go to heaven because they are saved, but the innocent victim they killed that was a unbeliever will go to hell because they didnt accept Jesus as their savior yet?
Yes. Because we're all guilty of sin -- including the victim. But people that are saved and serve God don't go and murder, rape and kill.
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Person A: accepted Jesus, but somewhere in his Christan walk starts to kill people with no regrets. So this person gets external life
As I said....Christians don't do that stuff.
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Person B: has not accepted Jesus, starts to kill people with no regrets. This person goes to hell for the same sins of Person A
Yup.
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Come on folks this makes no sense, if you start raping, murdering, become a bank robber, cheat on you spouse and commit adultery over and over again after you have been saved and you know these sins are wrong according to scripture, but continue to keep doing them, this is now a lifestyle, not just a sin when you can repent and turn from them. If you die living these lifestyle dont repent of those sins, you will not go to heaven.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus he will be in paradise for believing in him, but what it he survived and they took him off the cross and he goes back to being a thief, do you really think he would get eternal life?
Yes. Unless the faith wasn't real, in which case Jesus wouldn't have promised he'd be in Heaven.
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Hebrews 10:26-29
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26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Every Christian I know of has committed sin after meeting Christ. If we read this verse to mean that we lose our salvation by sinning and can't get it back....well, none of us are going to heaven.
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1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
People that continue in that lifestyle demonstrate that they are not Christians.
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Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€
Scriptures speak for itself.
They do, yes. Christians don't persist in a lifestyle of sin.
God decides when to remove us from this world. Not us.
Who is removed according to Proverbs 2 vs 21 ,22, and who remain ?___________
Who remains according to Psalm 37 vs 11,29 ?_________
We are nearing the threshold of God's kingdom of a thousand years ruling over Earth, or earthly subjects of God's kingdom.
The living humble meek 'sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 are Not removed but can remain alive on Earth right into the start of Jesus' 1000-year reign over Earth. Whereas the haughty 'goats' are cut off from life - 2nd Thess. 1 v 9 - cut off in the punishment of 'everlasting destruction' for the wicked.
- Psalm 92 v 7
Those called to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10 ] serve for a thousand years as kings and priests over earthly subjects.
As ' kings ' to take care of governmental responsibilities for earthly subjects.
As ' priests' to take care of spiritual duties for earthly subjects.
- Acts 24 v 15.
The majority of mankind will be living on a paradisaic earth under Christ as king of God's kingdom. - Matthew 20 v 28.
Both sides of the issue bombard the topic with scripture and accuse the other of twisting, rewording and downright lies. You will have to read for yourself and see which teaching you feel has the greatest merit. As for me, I believe that the Scriptures are very clear about the preservation of the saints outside of their ability to remain saved. Not one of those that the Father has given into the Son's hands shall be lost, but Christ will raise them on the last day. That's our promise of eternal salvation right there!
The reason why there are clear scriptures for both is because both are true.
Scriptures for "the preservation of the saints outside of their ability to remain saved" are "comfort scriptures" for those who struggle like Paul who admitted: For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Those scriptures do not usurp other scriptures that Jesus says about remaining truthful to the very end. That is why Jesus says there will be a great falling away from the truth as the world ends. One simply doesn't lose something they never have.
One simply doesn't lose something they never have.
Good point ^ above ^ because even Paul was concerned about loosing or ending up a castaway at 1st Cor. 9 v 27
Paul's 'crown of righteousness' was, according to 2nd Timothy 4 v 8, laid up or will be given 'at that day', or the time of the 'Lord's day' [ Rev. 1 v 10 ]. First or earlier before Jesus' millennial-long day of reigning over Earth.- Rev. 20 v 6.
I believe that the Scriptures are very clear about the preservation of the saints outside of their ability to remain saved. Not one of those that the Father has given into the Son's hands shall be lost, but Christ will raise them on the last day. That's our promise of eternal salvation right there!
Doesn't Jesus mention both 'his hand' at John 10 v 28 and his 'Father's hand' in verse 29 ?
'No man' can pluck or remove a person from their hands meaning only the person himself can do the removing.
No one else can do the prying loose or removing but the person himself such as Judas did remove himself.- John 17 v 12
All who endure to the end are the ones who will be saved.- Matthew 24 v 13
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