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In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does.
Agencies which drag, determine the body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). biblical studies: Questions and Answers - Part Five
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen 9
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
judgment is such an anti-American word! sin? no such thing!
so is the idea of only a limited number of people enjoying happiness.
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes a period of paternal correction, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the mistakes of all, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are.
Much better. It makes me feel better and now the gospel is not a stumbling block!
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
judgment is such an anti-American word! sin? no such thing!
so is the idea of only a limited number of people enjoying happiness.
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes a period of paternal correction, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the mistakes of all, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are.
Much better. It makes me feel better and now the gospel is not a stumbling block!
And that judgment will include kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement)
Is that what happened at Sodom? Seemed like they were upright destroyed. No corrective chastisement there.
At the judgment, everyone who needs to be will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, Dean Hough wrote “The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).”
Dean Hough
Is that what happened at Sodom? Seemed like they were upright destroyed. No corrective chastisement there.
The meaning of words that have been translated as “eternalâ€, “foreverâ€, “incurable†in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) --until-- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health"
and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,-- until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,-- until-- his death.
Is that what happened at Sodom? Seemed like they were upright destroyed. No corrective chastisement there.
If you believe the Sodomites will undergo never-ending torment, how do you understand this verse?
Matthew 11:24
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
With the land of Sodom obviously the Sodomites must be meant, that the Judgment Day will be more tolerable for them than for others strongly suggests that there is no such thing as everlasting torment, it would be unbearable for everbody who undergoes it and not more or less tolerable. Only a temporal penalty can be more or less tolerable, whereas never-ending punishment is simply unbearable; punishment seems even limited to Judgment day.
The passage says that Sodom will be restored, by which its former Inhabitants are meant I suppose, who else?, has already been quoted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83
twin.spin,
Don't you know Greek? Darkness means light, eternal means temporal, wrath means mercy, hate means love, rejection means embracing, torment means correction, punishment means chastisement, sin means not-so-bad mistakes, Jesus means Buddha, Bible means Quran.
You see, it's not the object of belief that matters, just the sincerity. I could outright spit in the face of God and bow down to an idol I've made, but it doesn't matter. We're all going to heaven because love conquers all. I guess I'll be going kicking and screaming.
According to Strong aiôn means more or less both time and eternity
Thats how I rembered the verse, however it might also mean, that the Christians believed that only punishment for themselves is limited, in the sense of purgatory and that no Christian is eternally damned, which I think is still believed by Catholics.
The fact that Mohammed heavily copied from Jews and Christians when he composed the koran, which would include the idea of hell, might not support that the majority of Christians were universalists back then.
Would be interesting which branch of Christianity lived around Mekka at the time of Mohammed and which language they spoke, maybe Copts?
I never studied the quran but googled the verse you posted. "They" in verse 24 refers to "those who were given part of the scripture". That is, Jews and Christians. "They" have turned away from God and still expect limited punishment. I think that's what we would call "fallen away". Are those people still Christians?
You are right the passage isn't about non Jews/Christians.
I don't know if there was any Universalism back then. It lasted for about 500 years. Theoretically traces could still exist. (UR never was completely eradicated). The way I read that verse it's a broad statement. Not just discussing a majority splinter cell. But as you wrote maybe in that area UR was still very much alive at that time. I don't know.
[3:23] Have you noted those who were given part of the scripture, and how they are invited to uphold this scripture of GOD, and apply it to their own lives, then some of them turn away in aversion?
[3:24] This is because they said, "The hellfire will not touch us, except for a few days." They were thus deceived in their religion by their own fabrications.
"They" have turned away from God and still expect limited punishment. I think that's what we would call "fallen away". Are those people still Christians?
When Mohammed says they have turned away from God, I think he meant that they did not follow him; so we should suppose that they were still Christians but refused to become muslims.
I do not know if the condemnation of universalism in the west in the 6th century affected other branches of Christianity as e.g. the Copts.
I found this but I do not know if it is a personal opinion or shared by the majority of Copts, it should also be noted that the Copts or the Ethiopic church had translations closer to the original text than modern westerners have, further since they are also Semites they might have an entirely different understanding of time and eternity as it developed in the west.
Quote:
The Coptic version, made probably about the end of the second century, for use in Egypt, and still used there, appears to render the Hebrew olm and the Greek aion by eneh, a word which is defined in Coptic dictionaries as meaning nothing more than "time."
The Armenian version is ascribed to Mesrop (354-441 A.D.) and others. Conybeare says it "fits the Greek of the Septuagint as a glove the hand that wears it; keeping so close to the Greek that it has almost the same value for us as the Greek text itself, from which the translator worked, would possess."
For the Greek aion it generally uses yavidyan, a word meaning eon. Sometimes ashkharh, meaning "world," is used instead. In Eph.2:2 (C.V. "the eon of this world") the two words are used together, yavidyeni ashkharhis, meaning the same as does the C.V. All the special expressions in the Greek containing aion (which are unknown to classical Greek) are found reproduced in the Armenian. In the Psalms, the same expressions which are found in the Septuagint occur in the Armenian, such as "for the eon and for the eon of the eon."
The root of the word yavidyan is yaved, which is shown in Armenian dictionaries as meaning "more, at most, a great deal." There is a verb, yavyeloum, which means to "add, increase, augment, grow." Yavidyan is defined as "age, life, world," but when used in a theological sense, it is obliged to take on the opposite meaning, of "eternity, perpetuity."
The Ethiopic version, in the semitic language formerly spoken in Abyssinia, is thought to have been made in the fourth or fifth century, from the Greek. It reproduces the usual Greek expressions containing eon. The word used is olm, exactly the same as in Hebrew and Syriac. In Jude 25 it reads, "and for all the eons" u-l-kul olmth, showing the plural form. In Heb.9:26 it reads, "at the conclusion of the eon" (l-chlqth olm). In Eph.3:21 it reads, "in every generation and for the eon of the eon" b-kl-thuld u-l-olm olm). In the Psalms it has a few times, as in 45:17, 48:14, and 52:8, "for the eon and for the eon of the eon" l-olm, u-l-olm olm. That this word olm assuredly could not signify "eternity" is placed beyond all doubt by the fact that it is also used to represent the Greek word for world (kosmos) generally, as throughout John 17. It also stands for the Greek word for era kairos, as in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30, and even for generation genea as in Luke 16:8.
Good point! The punishment should fit the crime. How severe and heinous is a crime committed against the holiness of God?
Sorry to bring this comment up again but this issue is a soupbox issue for me.
Worth Eternal Torture? Only if God has the Justice logic of Vlad the Impaler..or infinitely crazier. Did you read that post and really analyze the logic? Let's try it again more thoroughly:
1. God Sets up the universe creating all the rules and laws, one of which is that a single sin = Eternal Torture + all offspring automatically being born into sin
2. God then Creates the world and Humans that are incapable of truly avoiding sin, cannot comprehend eternity, and Gods knows they will fail.
3. He then Creates a method for them to save themselves that he knows less than 10% of every one who will ever live will ever be lucky enough to discover either because of where they were born or because they just happened to choose it amongst all the worlds religions and belief systems.
Under this system which assumes you believe in original sin, eternal torture, and at least some foreknowledge capability of God, any way you try to look at this ET traditionalist model, it still all goes to God and his design which using this model appears to be extremely if not infinitely sadistic be any known standard of logic or Justice that has ever been conceived.
So far, I've posted this many times here and no ET believer has found any good response besides "don't question God!" or "God logic is better than ours!" Those might be ok arguments for some like "why did God kill all those people in the old testament" But for something that appears to be an infinite level of madness, one would have to be a little mad themselves to blindly accept after considering the big picture at this level without a far superior argument...which most Traditionalist ETers never really have considered this so I'm not calling all ETers crazy .
Last edited by Jrhockney; 05-01-2013 at 01:05 PM..
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How severe and heinous is a crime committed against the holiness of God?
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