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Go for it buddy. I'll be very interested in what you have to say!
I meant in general, people should back up their opinions more carefully, ad hominem attacks, a mere appeal to tradition and majoritiy are not helpful, also to ridicule people because they resort to the Greek and to deny the possibility that translators tampered with the scriptures either by ignorance or willfully is naive.
This discussion will more or less lead to nowhere, but some people might benefit from it though. I created various threads in the past, you'll find them when you use the advanced search which threads I created.
Concerning aion and eternity, you might like this recent dissertation:
Ah, someone with courage to engage the philosophical side of this Sorry for the delay and the format, but I'm in kind of a hurry.
I'm not sure its as much about Determinism as it is about the creation of disproportionate and absurd consequences for virtually unavoidable situations that are a direct consequence of the creation method. Even under the Reformed Theology model your talking about (..I think) man is not responsible for the creation of a torturous hell, God is and that's where the buck stops. Consequences of freewill is one thing (at least for Arminians) and rightly so, but for God to expect his imperfect creation to be perfect (which is impossible) or find Christ within their 1-120 year lifespan or doom himself to eternal torture (and doom his kids as well in Adams case) is about as logical as a soldier yelling at his grenade for killing people he just threw in to crowd. The logic of it is absurdly sadistic by known human standard of justice including the most extreme torture based justice systems invented by man. From an outsider looking in to the Christian faith, the logic of this would appear to them to be infinitely crazier than half the stuff that comes out of Westboro Baptist...and we wonder why there are so many Heavy Metal songs bashing us, lol!
Your questions can be answered most clearly in Romans 9. Your understanding of who God is and his will is foreign to Reformed Theology. It's more of the feel good American evangelicalism. Throw out the foundation of the system and the branches will fall with it.
More and more people are waking up to this and it is even starting to make the traditional idea of hell dangerous to use in evangelism when it use to work almost perfectly on uneducated peasents in the middle ages. This is largely the reason why there are so many people here at this forum who look towards alternate interpretations of the bible (or have just stepped away from Chrstianity altogether). We have people here who believe in Eternal Separation (actually believed my many if not most of the popular mainstream Christian Apologists), Annihilationism, and lots people who believe in Universal Reconciliation (URs) in various forms all because they have come to realize the logical and moral absurdity of a "loving" creator torturing his creations forever. I was an Eter for a while who eventually became more of an ESer and now I'm ultimately undecided but hope for UR and I do not dismiss the possibility of it especially after learning the history of it and a and learn more about the Greek and Hebrew words in question.
I'll just chalk this up as preaching so no response needed.
I meant in general, people should back up their opinions more carefully, ad hominem attacks, a mere appeal to tradition and majoritiy are not helpful, also to ridicule people because they resort to the Greek and to deny the possibility that translators tampered with the scriptures either by ignorance or willfully is naive.
This discussion will more or less lead to nowhere, but some people might benefit from it though. I created various threads in the past, you'll find them when you use the advanced search which threads I created.
Concerning aion and eternity, you might like this recent dissertation:
Many works on the issue are outdated and partly inaccurate, this applies for both universalists and infernalists.
Thanks for the referrals sven.
This might not be a scholarly statement, but during my 74 years of living I was never able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best after I die, than to claim to love a god who would allow anyone to be locked in to a never ending state of suffering.
I repeated my post because the idea that all those universal salvationists will be eternally "damned" is so revolting to me that I wanted to try to shock readers by facing them up to what Twin is claiming to be true.
No such luck I guess.
Thanks for the referrals sven.
This might not be a scholarly statement, but during my 74 years of living I was never able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best after I die, than to claim to love a god who would allow anyone to be locked in to a never ending state of suffering.
I repeated my post because the idea that all those universal salvationists will be eternally "damned" is so revolting to me that I wanted to try to shock readers by facing them up to what Twin is claiming to be true.
No such luck I guess.
Let's be accurate... I have stated:
UR is a false gospel
those on the left of Jesus will not be saved through the false gospel hope of UR
those who preach a false gospel are cursed by God (Galations 1:5-6)
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
Frankly ... UR is the practice of making God into thine own image.
The false gospel messengers reject this:
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathemalet him be!
as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathemalet him be!
NIV Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
those on the left of Jesus will not be saved through the false gospel hope of UR
those who preach a false gospel are cursed by God (Galations 1:5-6)
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
Frankly ... UR is the practice of making God into thine own image.
The false gospel messengers reject this:
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathemalet him be!
as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathemalet him be!
NIV Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Your questions can be answered most clearly in Romans 9. Your understanding of who God is and his will is foreign to Reformed Theology. It's more of the feel good American evangelicalism. Throw out the foundation of the system and the branches will fall with it.
I'll just chalk this up as preaching so no response needed.
Which part of Romans 9 addresses my argument? I don't see how this addresses the key concern of of the fairness or sanity of God initially creating an eternal torture chamber. If your contending that its all fair because God can do with us whatever he wants and everyone has a purpose, that still doesn't sanely justify him burning his creations alive for eternity and I don't follow the ". Which part of Your reformed theology differs from the model I've set. I need specifics here, not generalities and I don't have time to search a thousand large links for the specific details you are looking for. I glanced over a few of them and I'm not seeing what your are talking about so far.
Let me make it simple. Which of the following parts of the model I descrbed do you disagree with?:
1. God Created the Universe and all rules and laws
2. God the rule that one sin makes someone "deserving" of eternal torture in hell
3. God Created the rule that one sin becomes "original sin" and causes all offspring to be automatically born into sin
4. God Created Humans that are imperfect
5. God Created Humans that cannot truly mentally understand or perceive eternity
6. God Expected his human Creations would sin.
7. God sent Jesus as a way for his human creations to avoid hell and be with God in Heaven through belief in Jesus and perhaps following his words (some denominations are Grace and/or works based)
8. only about 1% to at most 30% of all humans will ever find or choose Jesus because of their living location, their, the way they were raised, their choices, their mental capacity, or because God directly contacted them somehow.
I think thats everything, but anyways, which of these points do you disagree with and why?
As far as the preaching is concerned, I offered multiple possibilities more for educational purposes not really deciding on one, so I wouldn't exactly call it preaching....though I do not accept ET doctrine so far so if you want to say I was preaching, I suppose you could say I was preaching a little against that ;p
those on the left of Jesus will not be saved through the false gospel hope of UR
those who preach a false gospel are cursed by God (Galations 1:5-6)
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
Frankly ... UR is the practice of making God into thine own image.
The false gospel messengers reject this:
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathemalet him be!
as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathemalet him be!
NIV Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so ... I wonder who it is, that paints a picture of God in their own image:
"God loathes mankind, this I know for my lawfulness tells me so."
Yeah, I know! But, don't look back.
"No one, after putting his hand to the plow; and looking back is fit for the Kingdom of God."
According to Twin, John Estlin and I will be "eternally damned " for teaching that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
But John's attitude has been my own attitude for many of my 74 years and it will remain so till I die.
So be it.
By John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).
“To a belief in the doctrine of the eternity of hell torments, I impute more absurdity, more misery, and more un-Christian conduct, than to all other false opinions put together. The effects of this doctrine, when a person applies it to himself, are gloom and despair, often terminating in mental derangement; when he applies it to others, pride, cruelty, hatred, and all the worst passions of human nature.
It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.
The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.
I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire.”
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Sorry for the delay and the format, but I'm in kind of a hurry.
