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He finished what He set up to do, but you see it as unfinished because He did not finish what YOU expected Him to finish.
Ok, let's break it down. What part do you believe is NOT true in the following:
1.) That God started the work in each of us.
2.) That God is the one that Finishes the work in each of us.
3.) That God is able to Finish the work in each of us.
That is because they do not believe the spoken word of his desire accomplishes that which it is sent out for. Every word God speaks is an investment and his word is invested in us and nothing can stop that investment prospering in us. It is interesting that they believe all prophecy is fulfilled, and if pushed to explain why,they would say that God's never fails, but in the same breathe they reject the idea that his desire spoken cannot be accomplished. Like someone already said on this thread they won't it both ways.
I get the feeling they believe that God needs our permission to save us. They apparently do not realize that carnal man CANNOT be subject to God. They have no way to explain how a carnal man can be saved UNLESS they can acknowledge that God must force the man to be saved. For the scripture says the following:
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
They really have no rational, nor logical answer for how God is to save the carnal minded person since they rely on the believe that the carnal minded person must CHOOSE God (which God says they cannot do).
Still there are condition for being saved for Heaven which are being born in the spirit of God to Jesus righteousness and people must repent of sin , and these the last people also must do to be saved ...... See in Luke 13 :1-5
Those conditions for salvation to be in the future earthly kingdom are only for the Jews. They must be begotten anew and repent.
With us of the nations it is totally different. We have it better than being "born again" or "begotten anew". We are a ***new creation***.
Paul, our apostle never once told the nations they had to repent, be baptized to be saved. We of the nations are only saved by the faith God gives us. And only saved by Christ's death, entombment and resurrection.
Quote:
which the same chapter Jesus said ...``Suppose you that these Galileans, were sinners above all Galileans, because they suffered such things?...I tell you Nay: but except you repent , you all likewise will parish .....Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them , think you that were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? .....I tell you Nay, but except you repent you will all likewise perish ``............Jesus like these last people who ignored and hated the commands of Lord Jesus Christ and refused to repent and be saved to Jesus will also like wise perish
But what did Jesus mean by "perish"? He could not possibly have meant "perish" in the sense of never ever able to be saved. Jesus said he came to seek and to save the perished sheep of the house of Israel.
Luke 30:13 "the first and last" Jesus relates to the ones that sit with Abraham in the coming kingdom. the first are the ones that sit with Jesus on thrones like the Apostles and last are the ones who are saved, but only through the fire, they are not sitting on thrones. There are different rewards. But Jesus words remain true, few and not all will enter His kingdom.
There are the first here now on earth who rule in the churches, have the authority and power, if they rule like the world does and not let by the Spirit, they will be the last, some workers for God got rich and will loose their reward in Heaven, because they received it already here on earth, the right attitude of the heart is important to serve God and not the mammon. Some loose their reward by receiving the honor of men and not giving honor to God. The teachers of the word will get a stronger judgement, if they teach falsehood where others can get stumble in there faith, it is dangerous.
Now the last here on earth for instance are the widows who are not important in the church, but pray and intercede and serve God in love helping others, they are the first in the kingdom of God, sitting on thrones.
The argument what God promises will come to pass is not true, they are often conditional (faith; obedience). Two million people of Israel had the promise of the promised land, only Joshua and Kaleb got the promise because they had the right spirit. The same is with us (1.Cor 10), the ones that are filled with the Spirit of God and are led by the Spirit are the adopted sons of God (Rom 8:14). The unbelievers have the spirit of this world and are in the kingdom of darkness and light goes to light and darkness to darkness. Only the ones that are in the book of life escape the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). Paul said he wants to be in the first resurrection and he said he has to persuade it, not that he has it already (Phil 3:10-12). Again it is conditional, later Paul said that he reached the goal.
I get the feeling they believe that God needs our permission to save us. They apparently do not realize that carnal man CANNOT be subject to God. They have no way to explain how a carnal man can be saved UNLESS they can acknowledge that God must force the man to be saved. For the scripture says the following:
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
They really have no rational, nor logical answer for how God is to save the carnal minded person since they rely on the believe that the carnal minded person must CHOOSE God (which God says they cannot do).
Very true, they have no rational or logical answer to it. I am beginning to believe that they can see what is being presented to them, but because of the implications it causes to their whole world of faith, they deny it. I believe this because of threads like this where fair and honest questions are presented and rather than giving straight forward answers to the questions ask, they reply with things that are not scriptural or totally irrelevant to the questions asked of them.
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. ~Luke 13:23-28
Many people, when using this passage to defend the doctrine of eternal torment, always ignore the last two verses of Jesus’s statement. Let’s read it:
And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. ~Luke 13:29-30
Jesus was asked a clear question (are there few that be saved?), and he ended his answer by saying that some shall be first, and some shall be last. Why would Jesus say that some are first and others are last in reference to salvation, when according to Christianity, you are either saved now or never? It’s a contradiction. Jesus wasn’t saying that only few will ever be saved, he was saying that only are saved first/now. There is an order to salvation.
In this passage, both those inside and outside of the kingdom, are being referred to as the first and the last. And when asked about salvation, Jesus concludes that some are first, and some are last. That’s why whenever someone quotes this passage to defend eternal torment, they always ignore verse 30 and stop short at verse 28. Now let’s read the parable of the vineyard:
1-5For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6-10 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11-16 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. ~Matthew 20:1-16
In this parable, we learn two very important things: 1. BOTH the first and the last get into the the vineyard which represents the kingdom of Heaven, but at different times, and 2. We should not be jealous but rather happy that God will eventually bless the last as well as the first.
Romans 11 also shows that there is an order to salvation:
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verses 5-7
Part of Israel at this present time have received grace and the rest are blinded verses 7-10. But the result of blindness is not permanent verses 11-12. Their blindness will last only until the gentile nations are received of God:
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob ~Romans 11:19-26
Those that are cut off will not be cast away forever (Romans 11:19-24). Once again, some are saved first, and some are saved last:
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you (Romans 11:25-26). For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. ~Matthew 21:28-32
I have just reread this, and to be honest never saw the connection to a few being saved now and the first being last and the last being first before when reading this passage of scripture. It truly is great proof of all being saved in God's time and something that's yet to be refuted on this thread by those who believe the last who to them outside the door are eternal hell bound are in fact just the last to enter into the kingdom. It is also interesting as you read the rest of the chapter that Jesus did not say you will never see me again for not believing in me,but you will not see me until(not unless) you say what you need to acknowledge to enter in to the kingdom of God,which is blessed is he who comes in the name of The Lord.
Kudos to you.
I have just reread this, and to be honest never saw the connection to a few being saved now and the first being last and the last being first before when reading this passage of scripture. It truly is great proof of all being saved in God's time and something that's yet to be refuted on this thread by those who believe the last who to them outside the door are eternal hell bound are in fact just the last to enter into the kingdom. It is also interesting as you read the rest of the chapter that Jesus did not say you will never see me again for not believing in me,but you will not see me until(not unless) you say what you need to acknowledge to enter in to the kingdom of God,which is blessed is he who comes in the name of The Lord.
Kudos to you.
Yes, Jesus made it clear that the FEW are those CHOSEN. An ETer runs with that and claims only a few will ever be saved. They don't see the parallel with the Old Testament which was a type of this. We know that those called NOW in this dispensation are being called to be THAT CHOSEN group. That means, anyone who is truley a Christian now at this time (I'm not one) would be then considered one of the Chosen. The vast majority of "Christians" are not followers of Christ so that would exclude them. However, just like in the Old Testament the CHOSEN was the Levitical Priesthood (notice they were priest and the chosen now are to be PRIESTs with Christ in His reign). Those being CHOSEN now are to be administering to the rest of the congregation to ATONE AND TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. Under the New Covenant those wicked ones will receive a new heart in the here after.
The CHOSEN are Spiritually referred to as the FLAMES Of God's Wrath. They are spiritually STONES to be CAST at the wicked. They will be the instruments by which the dross is removed from the wicked. They are not hurt of the fire because they ARE the Spiritual FIRE.
What people don't realize is that the lack of "love for all" is the heart of the ANTI-Christ message. Jesus made it specifically clear to love your enemies and turn the Cheek. He even said what reward have you if you love those that love you. So the only real reward is to love those that oppose you and hate you.
1.) Salvation is 100% God's doing.
2.) But it is up to you to choose God.
wrong ........... not all do
Correct understanding of scriptures teaches
1.) Salvation is 100% God's doing, thus God takes the credit for spiritual rebirth
2.) unbelief is 100% the unbelievers fault, thus are damned for choosing for rejecting the truth
Those who " But it is up to you to choose God" is making coming to faith a work or in other words a "gift of man" rather than a "gift from God".
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