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To quote someone else, "There's no reasoning with unreasoning credulity."
Seriously, Twin, when a doctrine is so obviously self-contradictory, it's time to consider that the doctrine isn't a "scriptural paradox" but rather is a misunderstanding.
I appreciate that Luther didn't wish to ascribe any evil to God, but the obvious conclusion of the doctrine of single predestination does so in spite of Luther's good intentions.
There are ways to understand the scripture regarding predestination that maintain biblical integrity while not requiring one to do mental pretzel twists to avoid the idea that God is purposely dooming most to an eternity in hell.
For instance ... there is the idea that some are predestined to be first, and others to be last and that all will be saved. Or, as another poster (Nate Swift, I believe) has indicated, that predestination is not about individuals at all, but rather about what salvation is (salvation = God has predestined/predetermined that people will be conformed to the image of Christ).
Neither of those understandings is against reason, and both can be supported by scripture quite as readily as the doctrine of single predestination. But you choose to cling to a doctrine that doesn't make sense.
That is where human logic has to take a back seat and let scripture speak for itself.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Scriptures teaches God only chooses people unto salvation but not those to reject him. Only human logic can conclude otherwise which Calvinism and the like fell trap to. The scriptures only teaches specifically of the predestination of the believer, but not of the unbeliever.
Amen....
This is why you get from those who think they have it (understanding) when in reality somewhere they have rejected God. And in this case it is rejecting eternal damnation, hell, LOF and clinging to universalism.
One can see that the understanding with what they come up with will be human logic which will always inevitably contradict what the scripture is really teaching.
The Holy Spirit is void and not presence in the so called reading and comprehension..... rather one is depending upon humanism to interpret the scripture. And you end up with a false doctrine to which they believe and claim as truth, God's truth..... yet it is far from being truth !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I would go back and refer to Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
and that siding with "BY DEFAULT" conclusions is the basis on why Calvinism \ Armenianism have muddled the truth. As I have stated many times before, both rely on human logic which ultimately turns into spiritual gangrene of other incorrect doctrines.
There you go.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I'm confident that God revealed the truth which then one has to either when faced with scriptural paradoxes that are meant to be parallel to each other ( ... | | ...)
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"Proverbs 3:5
not instead to attempt to cross one another via human logic which resulting in ( ... X ...)
"Trust in human logic with all your heart and lean on your own understanding"
that concludes that single predestination is self-contradictory.
Amen.....
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 12-28-2013 at 12:36 PM..
OK. Let's remember you said that, because in the past you have made multiple attempts to convince everyone you were something you never were.
I was a bible fundamentalist, then God knocked me off my high horse apprehended me and began convincing me that he is not what I'd been brain washed into believing.
I would make you and twin spin look like universalists I was that sold out to it.
You were something you never were...... Interesting.
In the past you have said you were a "fundamentalist" believing in hell fire and brimstone, and now we know that was not true. End of story.
No I never said that at all. I would also say I was not in a right frame of mind, my senses had taken a leave of absence to be brain washed into to believing in it, then being apprehended I came to my senses saw God as my Heavenly Father not some tyrant that makes the tyrants of men look like angels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
No,because like you although I thought I believed it, in truth I didn't,because if I really did I would be doing exactly what I described. Faith without works is dead, if you say you have faith in the reality of eternal hell and all who do not believe like you end up there, and you're not active at the very least trying to convince loved ones of the extreme horror of it, your faith in it is dead. In fact it would seem in your case that politics are more important to you than those entering into the lake of fire you believe is eternal hell.
.
I will put it you again, that you do not believe in eternal torment because if you did you would be doing this described in the below post of mine....
And what's more if by chance you do believe it,should be utterly ashamed of yourselves for not doing everything in your power 24/7 to be an instrument in helping those heading to the extreme horror of the lake of fire, you believe is eternal hell, where all that are in it are tormented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
If i was sold out to the belief of eternal hell and the horror of it I would not rest night and day in trying to convince my loved ones and friends of it, I simply would not give up and anytime I wasn't around them I would be on my knees praying for them. If I had to abstain from everything they thought a Christian shouldn't be doing being that would make me a hypocrite in their eyes,I would, I would pull my eyes out for them, give them all my goods, bear all their burdens, I'd be relentless in zeal to keep them out of it.
The fact is you too would probably be doing the same things if you really did believe it, but you know in your heart of hearts there is no such place where billions are eternally tormented,band you know your heart rebels against it and conscience tells you that it is despicable.
You certainly wouldn't be going through the motions of escapism wanting to be with Jesus, while the majority you believe are going to be eternally tormented.
If the eternal hell you believe in is true, most of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
If you aren't what is your excuse ?.
If you are weak and confess who The Lord says you are...... strong, which one is the real you ?.
I will put it you again, that you do not believe in eternal torment because if you did you would be doing this described in the below post of mine.....
I know what I believe, so I don't need others to tell me what I believe or don't believe. You, in the other hand, have told me that in the past that you believed in it, and now you are saying you never believed it.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 12-28-2013 at 01:33 PM..
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Or, as another poster (Nate Swift, I believe) has indicated, that predestination is not about individuals at all, but rather about what salvation is (salvation = God has predestined/predetermined that people will be conformed to the image of Christ).
Interesting.
