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I really don't know... perhaps Spiritual blindness in that area or maybe just wishful thinking (?) They also seem to want to 'label' everyone who doesn't believe in UR as an "ET'r" ... as if to suggest that the only way hell could exist is for God Himself to favor Eternal Torment.
IMO, the UR philosophy is a major heresy of our time, since it promotes ignoring a huge amount of scripture that says otherwise. (It's not just a doctrinal position, but, an overt effort to encourage others to ignore scriptural warnings, under the auspices of "a loving God who would never ... (fill in the blank)). That's been the lie of Satan from the beginning: "Surely, you will not die."
By the same token, I believe there are a lot of sincere, people who genuinely believe in UR and believe that a lot of the "all" and "temporary eternity" scriptures trump all Bible references to hell or condemnation. --- Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
Let's prove who will ignore scriptures. Which one of these do you believe is NOT True:
1.) God gets what He desires.
2.) God desires to save everyone.
(It's not just a doctrinal position, but, an overt effort to encourage others to ignore scriptural warnings, under the auspices of "a loving God who would never ... (fill in the blank)).
We look at all of God's character. God considers it not only merciful but also "Just" to forgive (1 john 1:9). Because he paid in full for our sins. God considers it Just to give those that deserve few stripes, there few stripes, and those the deserve many stripes, there many stripes (Luke 12:45-48). God considers it just to give everyone a fair punishment according to a specific measure (Matthew 7:2+Colossians 3:25). Even the old testament taught an eye for an eye and that a punishment should not exceed a specific duration (Deuteronomy 25:1-3). Eternal torment believers are the ones who always say "God is love but he is also just!!". As if it's one vs the other. God is love AND he is just.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
By the same token, I believe there are a lot of sincere, people who genuinely believe in UR and believe that a lot of the "all" and "temporary eternity" scriptures trump all Bible references to hell or condemnation. --- Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
Have you read some of the scriptures they use to promote eternal torment? He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18
^John 3:18 Contradicts eternal torment. The verse says they are condemned already. How can condemnation be an eternal, never-ending state if people are condemned already? Many people who are condemned already give their life to Jesus everyday. If condemnation is irreversible then no one should be condemned already.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16 Condemnation isn't irreversible. Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: Mark 10:33. Was Jesus dead forever? Eternal torment believers always do what they accuse us of doing and that's reading into the text things that aren't there.
Is that how you behaved when you were a "fundamentalist" like you claim you once were?
No,because like you although I thought I believed it, in truth I didn't,because if I really did I would be doing exactly what I described. Faith without works is dead, if you say you have faith in the reality of eternal hell and all who do not believe like you end up there, and you're not active at the very least trying to convince loved ones of the extreme horror of it, your faith in it is dead. In fact it would seem in your case that politics are more important to you than those entering into the lake of fire you believe is eternal hell.
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No,because like you although I thought I believed it, in truth I didn't,because if I really did I would be doing exactly what I described. Faith without works is dead, if you say you have faith in the reality of eternal hell and all who do not believe like you end up there, and you're not active at the very least trying to convince loved ones of the extreme horror of it, your faith in it is dead. In fact it would seem in your case that politics are more important to you than those entering into the lake of fire you believe is eternal hell.
.
In other words you were a never what you have claimed you were.
Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
I honestly would not have expected the bolded statement from you, jghorton. You never seemed to me to be someone who thought that a belief in Christ was only beneficial for the purpose of avoiding eternal hell. Are you saying that if there is no eternal hell, you would not still have the same passion and concern for people who reject the God you believe in?
In other words you were a never what you have claimed you were.
I was not the person I thought I was. Thankfully for the longest time that without fear of retribution from God, I have been open to look at things that conflict with what I believe.
I see you're still here while many are leaving this world eternal hell bound. Sure you believe in it
It is simple twin. In your theology, you believe that one must Choose God in order to be saved. You make the believer a co-savior. Of course you don't admit that but that is what logical/rational observers see in what you say. Now confronted with this information, you'll most likely shoot the messenger and not say thank you for your constructive observation. You would rather protect what you have learned instead of learn what can protect you by focusing on following the trail of facts that lead to the truth. What you don't understand fully or what contradicts, you just accept as part of your faith. Because there is absolutely contradiction in your beliefs.
Again, Fundamentalism breaks down to this logic:
1.) They preach that God is the 100% saving force in ones life.
2.) Then they preach that someone must CHOOSE to be saved in order to be saved.
This understanding is contradictory and its ANTI-CHRIST.
Jesus wanted His disciples to be SURE to understand that they DID NOT Choose Him but rather that He chose them.
No trettep ... and that is what I thought you were going with this, that's why I responded the way I did.
Re-read the two points I stated earlier, I made no mention of your "foot-stomping must-be #2 factoid" of fundamentalists.
I stated that scriptures teach that people can only choose to reject.
The explanation of the Third Article by Luther explains about "Sanctification" by the 3rd person of the Trinity the Holy Spirit, (which addresses #2 held by the "decision theology" i.e. must CHOOSE crowd) in the Small Catechism, states:
I believe that by my own reason or strength I cannot believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him.
But the Holy Spirit has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, and
sanctified and preserved me in true faith, just as he calls, gathers, enlightens and sanctifies
the whole Christian church on earth and preserves it in union with Jesus Christ in the one
true faith. In this Christian church he daily and abundantly forgives all my sins, and the sins
of all believers, and on the last day he will raise me and all the dead and will grant eternal
life to me and to all who believe in Christ.
This is most certainly true.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-28-2013 at 10:44 AM..
Their theology is built upon sand. These simple questions topple it easily.
fyi .... only in your mind do you think so. Mystic's theology is truly an inward self pontification that is toppled by a series of two little word combinations :
The Bible = God's Word = Absolute truth = God's Power
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