Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Except it isn't a practice carried over into the New Testament.
Katie
Could you please cite for me under the new covenant where it explicitly precludes us from worshipping like David and other psalmists with instruments?
Are we supposed to completely disregard the Old Testament? When we were younger, should I not have quoted verses from Song of Soloman to my wife because that action isn't explicitly authorized in the New Testament?
Also, I would like to offer my own New Testament support for my worship with instruments. Paul wrote that "all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in rightoeusness." 2 Timothy 3:16. He wasn't really referring to the New Testament in this passage, which was not canonized as part of the Bible until centuries later. He was actually referring to the Old Testament.
Heck, no wonder you got away from them. I don't blame you. So I take it you never hooked up with any mainline church of Christ? Were they your only exposure to a coC?
Hi Katie, yes, I did attend services with different congregations, including those who did not have campus ministry groups in my hometown and wherever I lived after leaving Greensboro. As I shared, the discipling process that going on in the Greensboro congregation was eventually dealt with by the elders I believe. I attended services of mainline churches in Virginia and was very involved with one in Portsmouth. The members in general were very sweet and sincere but the reason I left is because I was being harassed by one of the members and on the advice of some of the elders from another congregation, I went "underground." (seriously ). I would still attend services as I would with any congregation of believers, but I would not officially become a member again because I do not hold to some of the beliefs and teachings now, based on what I have studied out in the scriptures with God's help. God bless.
Could you please cite for me under the new covenant where it explicitly precludes us from worshipping like David and other psalmists with instruments?
Are we supposed to completely disregard the Old Testament? When we were younger, should I not have quoted verses from Song of Soloman to my wife because that action isn't explicitly authorized in the New Testament?
Also, I would like to offer my own New Testament support for my worship with instruments. Paul wrote that "all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in rightoeusness." 2 Timothy 3:16. He wasn't really referring to the New Testament in this passage, which was not canonized as part of the Bible until centuries later. He was actually referring to the Old Testament.
well, if you want a scripture that tells us not to... there isn't one. so to some that is the only authority they need to do it.
However, from a historical standpoint, instruments were not introduced into worship until (this is an arguable approximation) around 670A.D. I have never ran into a church historian that mentioned Christians using instruments in worship. Josephus spoke on this. As did numerous other church historians.
over 600 years the church did not have instruments. Now I ask myself why? And why after 600 years did they bring an organ in? Seems to me if they were allowed or accepted in the earliest worship services then there would be some mention of it.
instruments are man made devices. Singing from the heart is spiritual. We are the instruments of God.
To people who have grown up with instruments in services, i realize this is going to be a hard pill to swallow and will probably be overlooked as just one person's opinion... and it is. But if the only example of Christ's church in the scriptures doesn't make any mention of it and historical records are overwhelmingly in harmony that the early church did not use them when they were probably readily available, then that tells me that I should not use them.
I can't tell anyone to not use them. Just don't accept that its proper and right in the sight of God to do so. God used to require a lot of things in the OT. But we are no longer under a Tutor...
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Hi Katie, yes, I did attend services with different congregations, including those who did not have campus ministry groups in my hometown and wherever I lived after leaving Greensboro. As I shared, the discipling process that going on in the Greensboro congregation was eventually dealt with by the elders I believe. I attended services of mainline churches in Virginia and was very involved with one in Portsmouth. The members in general were very sweet and sincere but the reason I left is because I was being harassed by one of the members and on the advice of some of the elders from another congregation, I went "underground." (seriously ). I would still attend services as I would with any congregation of believers, but I would not officially become a member again because I do not hold to some of the beliefs and teachings now, based on what I have studied out in the scriptures with God's help. God bless.
well, if you want a scripture that tells us not to... there isn't one. so to some that is the only authority they need to do it.
However, from a historical standpoint, instruments were not introduced into worship until (this is an arguable approximation) around 670A.D. I have never ran into a church historian that mentioned Christians using instruments in worship. Josephus spoke on this. As did numerous other church historians.
over 600 years the church did not have instruments. Now I ask myself why? And why after 600 years did they bring an organ in? Seems to me if they were allowed or accepted in the earliest worship services then there would be some mention of it.
instruments are man made devices. Singing from the heart is spiritual. We are the instruments of God.
To people who have grown up with instruments in services, i realize this is going to be a hard pill to swallow and will probably be overlooked as just one person's opinion... and it is. But if the only example of Christ's church in the scriptures doesn't make any mention of it and historical records are overwhelmingly in harmony that the early church did not use them when they were probably readily available, then that tells me that I should not use them.
I can't tell anyone to not use them. Just don't accept that its proper and right in the sight of God to do so. God used to require a lot of things in the OT. But we are no longer under a Tutor...
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
I'd have to research the historical examples a little more closely.
However, let's just go with the biblical ones for the moment. I don't believe that the Book of Psalms is an Old Testament code to live by or laws at all. There's a huge difference between this book and Leviticus, for example, where most of the laws are set forth. I read Psalms as a total and complete form of personal worship (in ecstasy during the good times and depression during the bad times) that was very pleasing to God. It was done via poetry and words, as well as with musical instruments. As I said in my prior post, I would need a pretty clear New Testament example to not worship in this manner, especially given that all "scripture [Old Testament] is God-breathed".
Let me conclude by saying that I do not believe worshiping with an instrument should be required. I believe it's the intent and not the physical means that is most pleasing to God. So, if you worship Him with everything that you have by just singing, that will honor Him completely. If I worship Him with everything by singing and playing an instrument, that will be as equally honoring.
well, if you want a scripture that tells us not to... there isn't one. so to some that is the only authority they need to do it.
However, from a historical standpoint, instruments were not introduced into worship until (this is an arguable approximation) around 670A.D. I have never ran into a church historian that mentioned Christians using instruments in worship. Josephus spoke on this. As did numerous other church historians.
over 600 years the church did not have instruments. Now I ask myself why? And why after 600 years did they bring an organ in? Seems to me if they were allowed or accepted in the earliest worship services then there would be some mention of it.
instruments are man made devices. Singing from the heart is spiritual. We are the instruments of God.
To people who have grown up with instruments in services, i realize this is going to be a hard pill to swallow and will probably be overlooked as just one person's opinion... and it is. But if the only example of Christ's church in the scriptures doesn't make any mention of it and historical records are overwhelmingly in harmony that the early church did not use them when they were probably readily available, then that tells me that I should not use them.
I can't tell anyone to not use them. Just don't accept that its proper and right in the sight of God to do so. God used to require a lot of things in the OT. But we are no longer under a Tutor...
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Let me ask you one alternative question that sort of tugs at the same topic: can I pray the Psalms (with no instruments mind you) under your definition of worship?
..This is one reason why there was a split within the mainstream Church of Christ years ago..In all the Churches of Christ I have worshiped in or was a member of,[45 years] some took it very seriously to the point of arguing about it and not having any fellowship with the CofC down the road with a piano. As for myself and many other members it made no difference to us whether there was or was not a piano or other musical instrument..Personally I feel that the arguments took the focus off the reason for the meeting of the church...and has created dissention within the Bride of Christ..
I do not get into any of the scripture battles any more because one has the verses he follows and another has the verses he follows and that is what causes so many arguments and why I am no longer a member of the church being discussed in this thread
..This is one reason why there was a split within the mainstream Church of Christ years ago..In all the Churches of Christ I have worshiped in or was a member of,[45 years] some took it very seriously to the point of arguing about it and not having any fellowship with the CofC down the road with a piano. As for myself and many other members it made no difference to us whether there was or was not a piano or other musical instrument..Personally I feel that the arguments took the focus off the reason for the meeting of the church...and has created dissention within the Bride of Christ..
I do not get into any of the scripture battles any more because one has the verses he follows and another has the verses he follows and that is what causes so many arguments and why I am no longer a member of the church being discussed in this thread
that is jmho though
Thanks for the insight. This is a very new position for me. My church of more than ten years has amazing worship with a band. I have never heard the argument that musical instruments are not allowed. Just trying to hear the basis for it.
I've been in Churches of Christ that had a piano and an organ but never used them because the Lord didn't lead anyone to that church who could play them. It didn't detract from worship at all that the instruments weren't being used. Not that I'm against instruments in worship, but I think some churches carry it a little to the extreme, what with drums, electric guitars, etc. Sometimes the instruments overwhelm the singing.
Thanks for the insight. This is a very new position for me. My church of more than ten years has amazing worship with a band. I have never heard the argument that musical instruments are not allowed. Just trying to hear the basis for it.
Joey, having been raised in the cofC and having been a Christian in one for 10 years (I no longer am), I can tell you that the main reason most do not use instrumental music is because they feel it is not authorized in the NT, and they only live under the NT, not the OT. They will refer to Eph. 5:19... "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord". They believe "making music in your heart" means that's where the instrument is (your heart strings). They also believe that this is the only way you are to "make music".
It's one of the things I disagreed with the church about. I believe since we are told, in the above verse, to speak to one another in psalms, that that gives us the authority to use instruments, since a psalm is actually a song accompanied by instrumental music.
Personally, I like acapella music best, but I never condemned anyone else for using instruments.
Mainstream churches of Christ try their best to follow NT scripture, and not add to it or take away from it. Sometimes in the process, they strain a gnat.
On another note: instrumental music is not the only division in churches of Christ. Another is whether or not you can have a kitchen in the building, and whether you can use church monies to support orphanages. Those who believe you cannot, will not fellowship with those who do.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
). I would still attend services as I would with any congregation of believers, but I would not officially become a member again because I do not hold to some of the beliefs and teachings now, based on what I have studied out in the scriptures with God's help. God bless.
To use or not to use musucal instruments
