Once Saved Always saved, Is this a hyper grace doctrine? (quotes, Matthew)
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We certainly have a plethora of do nothing Christians, so I don't think there are so many trying to "work" their way into Heaven that they will even be noticed.
In order to make that judgment, you'd have to know what people do, or don't do. Obviously you do not know this.
There are Christians who don't feel the need to brag about their works, or to ask others if they are working hard enough, or to suggest they are not working hard enough. They keep is between God and themselves. Some people you label as "do nothing Christians" might be busier than you think.
Matthew 6 commands.
- when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others
- when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others
- when you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-16-2015 at 06:48 AM..
I'm beginning to think there are some who fail to put their hand to the plow because they are worried God will mistakenly think they are trying to work their way into Heaven. Whereas a do nothing Christian is seen to practice faith constantly in order not to rob God of His glory.
We certainly have a plethora of do nothing Christians, so I don't think there are so many trying to "work" their way into Heaven that they will even be noticed.
And having the good news is about sharing the good news--nope, not preaching, but teaching with a life that shows its faith with its works.
What do you think it means when someone repeatedly says "works are a natural result of faith"?
Earlier you said works are a requirement for salvation. Are you still saying that, or are you saying something else?
It means that he is quibbling when I say the same thing because I add that without that "natural result" a person is demonstrating that he has not entered into the salvation we are talking about, that he does not have the faith that is required. YOU say I am saying that works are a requirement for salvation when I am not saying that they earn salvation in any way.
We have to distinquish between different works and faith.
There are works of faith (1.Th1:3; 2.Th1:11) done through the Holy Spirit, which are done for reward, and there are evil works done through the flesh, which separates us from God (death).
Mat 7:23 "depart from Me, you that work iniquity".
Tit 1:16 "but in works they deny Him (God), being abominable and disobedient, and to every good work reprobate".
Not every believer will enter the Kingdom of God (Mat 7:21-23). Blessed are they, that do His commandments, that they may enter (Rev 22:14)
Mat 19:17 "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments". "If" stands for a condition and makes salvation conditional and there are a lot of "ifs" in the bible.
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter the strait gate, many try to enter, but shall not be able
Now we come to faith. Only faith on Christ and being in Christ makes our salvation secure. If we remain in Christ till the end of our life, we inherit eternal salvation. We are born spiritual again by receiving salvation in Jesus Christ and we have to hold on what we have (Rev 3:11; 1.Ti 6:12). It is a spiritual birth and a believer can die spiritual as Rom 11:19-22 and Rev 3:5 and 22:19 shows us.
There is true faith and there is wrong faith in the wishful thinking and doctrines of men.
Christians are ignorant and by lack of knowledge they perish (Hos 4:6)
OSAS says that all our sins are already forgiven including future sins regardless what we do. This is not what the bible says, we have to confess our sins to be forgiven, we have to forgive our transgressors to be forgiven.
OSAS says that God does not see our sins, because He looks through the blood of Jesus. Happy is he whose sins are forgiven, but Rev 2+3 tells Christians their sins and warns them to repent.
OSAS says we cannot loose our salvation, but that is not true, the prodigal son lost it and came to life again through true repentance.
OASA says to be born again is eternal salvation. No, it is receiving eternal life in Christ Jesus and we have to walk the narrow way and to put off the old man and be renewed in our mind (Eph 4:22; Col 3:8+9; Rom 12:1), only overcomers remain in the book of life (Rev 22:19). Sinners that think OSAS gives them a licence to transgress God's law, because Jesus died for them and the law has no power over them are in error. "For as many as have sinned without law, shall also perish without law". There is sin to death (the bible tells us which ones)) and sin not to death. Do you need a Savior and the blood of Jesus?
Zur,
An absolutely brilliant post
I heard a radio clip of the deceased Dr J Vernon McGee today where he said that we are saved by faith, but that he and James agreed that faith without works is dead.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-16-2015 at 04:53 PM..
Paul taught the believer's eternal security. I already provided the appropriate passages earlier in this thread. The verses you are using to argue that eternal salvation can be lost do no such thing.
The very first verse of Romans 8 which you posted above states that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
In the better manuscripts the verse stops there. The phrase 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit' was probably transcribed from Romans 8:4.
Every believer IS in Christ Jesus and is therefore not under condemnation. Being in Christ Jesus refers to the believer's unbreakable and eternal union with Christ. This is not the same thing as being in fellowship which refers to the believer's rapport with Christ in his daily life as a believer.
Death in Rom. 6:6 and 8:6 is not referring to spiritual death or to the second death. It is simply referring to be out of fellowship. I'm fairly certain that I already posted the seven different categories of death which the Bible mentions earlier in this thread.
As for Hebrews 12:14;
Heb. 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
That verse is not stating that persuing peace with all men is a requirement for obtaining eternal life. 'Seeing the Lord' here is simply a reference to the believer having communion or fellowship with Christ. The believer at any given time is either in or out of fellowship with God. When he sins he is carnal and out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. When he acknowledges the sin as per 1 John 1:9 he is restored to fellowship. A believer who is causing dissensions and strife rather than pursuing peace is out of fellowship and therefore does not 'see the Lord.'
The believer is eternally saved by God's grace. Not by his own works, his obedience, or his own righteousness. The Bible does not teach salvation by works, obedience, or anything other than by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Mike
I heard a clip on the radio today by the deceased Dr J Vernon McGee and he said we are saved by faith, but that he agrees with James that Faith without works is dead.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-16-2015 at 05:32 PM..
In order to make that judgment, you'd have to know what people do, or don't do. Obviously you do not know this.
There are Christians who don't feel the need to brag about their works, or to ask others if they are working hard enough, or to suggest they are not working hard enough. They keep is between God and themselves. Some people you label as "do nothing Christians" might be busier than you think.
Matthew 6 commands.
- when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others
- when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others
- when you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting
There is one that is public and the apostles and early Christians set a fine example.
Matthew 28:19-20 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
How well did those 1st century Christians do on this within a very short period of time, as an example for us as individuals?
Acts 5:28 28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Mike
I heard a clip on the radio today by the deceased Dr J Vernon McGee and he said we are saved by faith, but that he agrees with James that Faith without works is dead.
In order to make that judgment, you'd have to know what people do, or don't do. Obviously you do not know this.
There are Christians who don't feel the need to brag about their works, or to ask others if they are working hard enough, or to suggest they are not working hard enough. They keep is between God and themselves. Some people you label as "do nothing Christians" might be busier than you think.
Matthew 6 commands.
- when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others
- when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others
- when you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting
If every person who proclaims to be Christian were actually doing the works of Jesus, this would be a different nation and perhaps a different world.
It's quite obvious we have a glut of do nothing Christians because the results are coming in. Conservative Christian George Barna has said his research of young people shows they are turned off by the Christianity preached in this nation. At the same time those young people are looking for ways to make a difference. One in particular that I recall is to treat the earth with more respect--and some have pointed out that conservative Christianity isn't interested in that as a goal because it believes the world is soon coming to an end anyway.
So, no, I have no knowledge about individual Christians, but I'm able to read the social signs of how Christianity is failing itself and others with their own "beliefs."
P.S. My wife and I have been provided secret blessings for others for years. But we are no longer church members as there are very few who have widespread programs of good works. Many have small programs that represent a relatively small part of their budgets and efforts. So I would call those "almost" do nothing Christians.
Seems like you would have a better sense of what Christians are actually doing or not doing. But then if you fail to read and research, it's just easier to be defensive about doing those good works "secretly."
Do you believe Jesus would take back your salvation if you stop working one day down the road?
It can happen to anyone, even to you.
If it does happen to you, remember this: He set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
He won't forget you.
People here are too quick to judge the faiths of other people with comments like "you don't have faith, you are just kidding yourself that you have it". Such judgment stems from a cold heart.
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