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Are you saying you think Christ has returned? A lot of the things the Bible sys must happen before He does so have not happened.
No doubt we see it differentl.
No, I’m not saying Jesus has returned. He has come only once, and that is when He was born. He will come again someday. No one knows when. I am saying His kingdom is here now. A kingdom has four aspects: a king, subjects, laws, and a realm. We know Jesus is currently reigning as king because 1 Cor. 15:25 says so. Christians are His subjects. We live by His commands. The church is His realm. His kingdom is spiritual! 1 Corinthians 15 tells us what will happen when He comes again.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Another thing - Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, which imho was the gospel.
No, I’m not saying Jesus has returned. He has come only once, and that is when He was born. He will come again someday. No one knows when. I am saying His kingdom is here now. A kingdom has four aspects: a king, subjects, laws, and a realm. We know Jesus is currently reigning as king because 1 Cor. 15:25 says so. Christians are His subjects. We live by His commands. The church is His realm. His kingdom is spiritual! 1 Corinthians 15 tells us what will happen when He comes again.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Another thing - Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, which imho was the gospel.
He doesn’t put a literal end to all rule though, the point is for all the rulers to be subjected to Him
King of kings, Lord of lords far above those lower realms of authority which have dominion over the earth
Rom 13:1**Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2**Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3**For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4**For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5**Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6**For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7**Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
You know that Romans 3 is actually quoted from an OT text, right? It describes the human condition that started with Adam.
Yes I know they are quotes from the OT. They are written specifically about the Jews, and they never says man is born totally depraved.
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Yes. In Adam all have sinned.
The verse does not say “in Adam all men have sinned.”
I’ve looked at other translations, and I'm not seeing what you say it says. What I'm seeing is that sin entered the world through one man. Of course that man was Adam. He was the first to sin, therefore, he introduced sin into the world. May I ask what death you think Paul is speaking of here? Physical or spiritual?
“12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (NKJV)
Rom 5:12-14 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
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[As noted above in Rom 5, we are sinners because of Adam.
From Adam we get our fleshly/human nature. We sin because we choose to.
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Because we need to be born again. That's it. We need to become like little children and be born again.
We absolutely must be born again!
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John 1:12-13
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
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Thanks for the conversation. I've enjoyed it.
Me too! I want you to know that I respect your beliefs I have no doubt you love Jesus every bit as much as me. Who knows? Maybe we’re both missing something. Discussion is good!
No, I’m not saying Jesus has returned. He has come only once, and that is when He was born. He will come again someday. No one knows when. I am saying His kingdom is here now. A kingdom has four aspects: a king, subjects, laws, and a realm. We know Jesus is currently reigning as king because 1 Cor. 15:25 says so. Christians are His subjects. We live by His commands. The church is His realm. His kingdom is spiritual! 1 Corinthians 15 tells us what will happen when He comes again.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Another thing - Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, which imho was the gospel.
But you said that we are living in the thousand year reign of Christ right now. When do you believe that reign started and when did it end? If it started when Christ gave Peter the keys (roughly 34 AD), it would have ended in 1034 AD. I mean, to say we're now living in the "Millennium" just doesn't make sense to me at all.
But you said that we are living in the thousand year reign of Christ right now. When do you believe that reign started and when did it end? If it started when Christ gave Peter the keys (roughly 34 AD), it would have ended in 1034 AD. I mean, to say we're now living in the "Millennium" just doesn't make sense to me at all.
He doesn’t put a literal end to all rule though, the point is for all the rulers to be subjected to Him
King of kings, Lord of lords far above those lower realms of authority which have dominion over the earth
Rom 13:1**Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2**Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3**For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4**For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5**Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6**For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7**Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
He will put an end to all rule when He comes again. That doesn’t mean His kingdom isn’t here now.
But you said that we are living in the thousand year reign of Christ right now. When do you believe that reign started and when did it end? If it started when Christ gave Peter the keys (roughly 34 AD), it would have ended in 1034 AD. I mean, to say we're now living in the "Millennium" just doesn't make sense to me at all.
Jesus received the kingdom when He ascended into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11, Daniel 7:13-14).
Jesus promised to build His church/His realm. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom (Matt 16:18). The keys are the gospel of Jesus Christ. When a person obeys the gospel, He/She enters into the kingdom.
Jesus established His kingdom on Pentecost when He added 3000 souls to His church (His realm). (Acts 2:41, 47).
Jesus is reigning now. “For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.” 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put everything under His feet. (1 Cor. 15:25-27)
I Corinthians 15:20-24, especially verse 24 is key to understanding. When Jesus comes again, He will destroy all dominion, authority and power. Then He will hand the kingdom over to His Father.
There is no question that Jesus is our King. He is reigning now. Christians are His subjects. The church is His realm.
Jesus said, “ 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!” (Matthew 7:11)
Is Jesus saying we are depraved or totally depraved?
Orthodox do not say, as Calvin said, that humans after the fall were utterly depraved and incapable of good desires. They cannot agree with Augustine, when he writes that humans are under “a harsh necessity” of committing sin, and that “human nature was overcome by the fault into which it fell, and so came to lack freedom”.’
‘The image of God is distorted by sin, but never destroyed; in the words of a hymn sung by Orthodox at the Funeral Service: ‘I am the image of Your inexpressible glory, even though I bear the wounds of sin.’
‘And because we still retain the image of God, we still retain free will, although sin restricts its scope. Even after the fall, God ‘takes not away from humans the power to will – to will to obey or not to obey Him’. Faithful to the idea of synergy, Orthodoxy repudiates any interpretation of the fall which allows no room for human freedom
Jesus said, “ 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!” (Matthew 7:11)
Is Jesus saying we are depraved or totally depraved?
I do not for one minute believe this is a put down by Jesus. He is saying if you in your fallen state KNOW HOW to give good gifts to YOUR Children, HOW MUCH MORE your Heavenly Father give good things to those who ask Him.
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