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Old 09-03-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Eze 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the sonóboth alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.


Why would you call this mundane? Death seems like a pretty important thing in most peoples lives, because death is what finishes our life.
Because death, ultimately, is mundane, lego. The only other thing more mundane is birth. Of course i speak of the death of the body--I think by your definition, the soul dies with the body. Death is pretty common. But Jesus was concerned with our eternal destiny, not the death of our body/soul. That's why His words in this verse mean so much more than the cursory acknowledgement you give it. Jesus didn't come here to tell us we're all going to die. He came to tell us of a way to escape a punishment so severe that it warranted His death to escape it, to put it mildly. When Jesus says "lose your soul" He's referring to a horrible end for us if we don't go through Him to eternal salvation.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Using your own logic:
The verse in its entirety reads "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"
The explanation seems to be found in the part of the verse you left out!
not to mention verse 25: "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." The greek word here is for "life" is the same for "soul" in verse 26 according to the footnotes of the same bible you used to get the verse in the first place.
also look at verse 27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
So there is a reward for doing good but no statement as to what happens when you are bad... goes to context of the statement in verse 26.
and then we have verse 28: "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." So apparently using your logic: Those that were standing next to him in that day are still alive waiting for the Son of Man to come. I'd like to know where they are, in light of the view of some that the Son of Man has not returned yet? Cuz they are pretty old by now!
You're way off on a tangent, katjon. Let's keep it on point.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
AWWW, how condescendingly loving.
Thought you'd like that, phaze.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:34 PM
 
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I wouldn't say death or birth are mundane, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
When Jesus says "lose your soul" He's referring to a horrible end for us if we don't go through Him to eternal salvation.

I believe this is the error in your understanding. You equate:

"lose your soul" = "eternal punishment".

But it doesn't follow. If indeed Jesus was talking about "eternal hell" here, why didn't He say so? Looking at this verse alone, "losing your soul" could imply death, or it could imply eternal death (annihilation), because without a soul, you cannot be alive. I don't see eternal torment anywhere.

Given other verses that say Jesus conquers death and that death will be destroyed, we know that Matt 16:26 is not the end.

Anyway, you can believe how you wish, I only present my view of scripture.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I wouldn't say death or birth are mundane, but that's neither here nor there.




I believe this is the error in your understanding. You equate:

"lose your soul" = "eternal punishment".

But it doesn't follow. If indeed Jesus was talking about "eternal hell" here, why didn't He say so? Looking at this verse alone, "losing your soul" could imply death, or it could imply eternal death (annihilation), because without a soul, you cannot be alive. I don't see eternal torment anywhere.

Given other verses that say Jesus conquers death and that death will be destroyed, we know that Matt 16:26 is not the end.

Anyway, you can believe how you wish, I only present my view of scripture.
let me take one last stab, lego. You said you thought I became a UR. I weighed the two options. I came out on the side of ET because i took the totality of what Jesus had to say about hell, punishment, etc and observed the urgency and alarm with which Jesus kept hammering to the people about its consequences. I concluded, that if the reality was UR Jesus would not have been that concerned about man's ultimate fate. Why? Because everyone was going to make to heaven eventually. Why worry? That's not what I feel in my spirit Jesus was warning us about. I feel Jesus saw a consequence of unrepentant sin that was so horrible He had to warn people more about it than the bliss of heaven.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
let me take one last stab, lego. You said you thought I became a UR. I weighed the two options. I came out on the side of ET because i took the totality of what Jesus had to say about hell, punishment, etc and observed the urgency and alarm with which Jesus kept hammering to the people about its consequences. I concluded, that if the reality was UR Jesus would not have been that concerned about man's ultimate fate. Why? Because everyone was going to make to heaven eventually. Why worry? That's not what I feel in my spirit Jesus was warning us about. I feel Jesus saw a consequence of unrepentant sin that was so horrible He had to warn people more about it than the bliss of heaven.
No problem thrillobyte, I will take one last stab too

If the reality was a destiny of eternal hell for the majority of people, don't you think the bible would be full of warnings on every chapter and every page(assuming you believe God is all-loving)? Why was Adam & Eve not warned? What about Pharaoh, didn't he get a raw deal because God hardened his heart? What about the whole OT, were they all doomed until they learned about unquenchable fire and undying worms? What about the apostle Paul's letters... why did He not once mention "eternal hell" since that would obviously be the most urgent thing and threat to teach on?

I think part of the understanding missing is in what the purpose of this life is. Mainstream Christians see this life as the one chance to either go to heaven or hell.

But the real purpose (as I understand it) is much more noble than that. The purpose of this life is to learn how to be good, and to learn how to love.

Anyway, keep studying. Jesus didn't actually ever talk about hell. But we've been over this before....

Peace out.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
didn't he get a raw deal because God hardened his heart? What about the whole OT, were they all doomed until they learned about unquenchable fire and undying worms?
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." God gets to pick and choose whom He will have mercy on. It's that simple, lego. If he chooses some and not others, will the clay say to the potter, "Why didn't you choose me???"
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:28 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." God gets to pick and choose whom He will have mercy on. It's that simple, lego. If he chooses some and not others, will the clay say to the potter, "Why didn't you choose me???"
Yes He does

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Yes He does

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
not meaning to turn this into a predestination thread, but if God will have mercy on all, why does paul say, "THOSE whom He foreknew, He predestined"?
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:33 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
not meaning to turn this into a predestination thread, but if God will have mercy on all, why does paul say, "THOSE whom He foreknew, He predestined"?
Why does He say All ? . Why did Jesus say All ?
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