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I think it was sufficiently established that it does not state in scripture that a belief in Jesus being God is not required for salvation..
I think your probably right about this, at least from the standpoint of being declared righteous, which is strictly on the merits of Christ's work alone. A good example of this is the healing of the blind man prior to knowing who Jesus was. The blind man later did believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but not until after the healing. I also believe that outward healing usually signifies the inward forgiveness of sins by Christ. At least that was the case with the man with the withered arm who was healed by Jesus on the sabbath.
Mike and I were just flexing our carnal minded muscles. I only wrestle one at a time though... I think the Mod shut us both down, and before Christmas no less...LOL
Mike and I were just flexing our carnal minded muscles. I only wrestle one at a time though... I think the Mod shut us both down, and before Christmas no less...LOL
But seriously ....... I got a lot out of your exchange with Mike (just a side question - do you incline towards preterism or futurism??
But seriously ....... I got a lot out of your exchange with Mike (just a side question - do you incline towards preterism or futurism??
I tend to lean towards amillennialism (futurism ?), but the jury is still out for me on that one. This belief is primarily due to attending reformed churches. I really haven't spent a lot of time studying the different views.
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH"
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" appeared frequently in the Old Testament, and is called, "angel of Jehovah," "Jehovah," and "God." He possesses characteristics that can only belong to deity, and he accepted worship, which created angels did not [Revelation 22:8-9]. He is called "God" or "Jehovah" a number of times, see Genesis 16:7-13, 22:11-18; 31:13; 48:14; Exodus 3:2-22; [Joshua 5:13-15 and Judges 6:13-24] Judges 2:1-3; Zechariah 3:11; [Genesis 32:30 and Hosea 12:4-5].
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Hagar:
Genesis 16:7-13 Before the birth of Ishmael. Moses, speaking by inspiration said, "And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And HE said, Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence come you? And where do you go? And she said I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, I will greatly multiply your seed, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; and you shall call his name Ishmael, because JEHOVAH has heard your affliction...And she called the name of JEHOVAH THAT SPOKE UNTO HER, 'YOU ARE A GOD THAT SEES.'" In this passage Moses used three names referring to the same person (1) Jehovah (2) angel of Jehovah (3) God.
Genesis 21:16-20 After the birth of Ishmael. "Then she went and sat down opposite him, about a bow shot away, for she said, 'Do not let me see the boy die.' And she set opposite him and lifted up her voice and wept. And God heard the lad crying; and THE ANGEL OF GOD called to Hager from heaven, and said to her, 'What is the matter with you Hagar? Do not fear, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him by the hand; for I will make a great nation of him.'"
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Abraham:
Genesis 18:1-21 about the birth of Isaac and the destruction of Sodom. It was "The angel of Jehovah" that spoke to Abraham and stopped him from offering his son [Genesis 22:11-18], and it was this same "angel of Jehovah" that said, "You has not withheld your son, your only son, FROM ME." Verse 14 in the Septuagint reads, "And Abraham called the name of that place, The Lord has seen; that they might say today, in the mount the Lord was seen."
"The angel of Jehovah called to Abraham from heaven, and said, 'BY MYSELF I HAVE SWORN, DECLARES JEHOVAH'" [Genesis 22:16]. THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH called Himself "Jehovah." "By myself have I sworn, says Jehovah." The writer of Hebrews says, "For when God made promise to Abraham, since he could swear by none greater, he swore by himself...Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath; that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie" [Hebrews 6:13-18]. The angel of Jehovah calls himself "Jehovah" and the writer of Hebrews calls Him "God."
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Jacob:
"And, behold, JEHOVAH stood above it, and said, I am Jehovah, the GOD of Abraham...And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head, and set it up for a pillar...And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of the city was Luz at the first" [Genesis 28:13-19]. "THE ANGEL OF GOD" SPOKE UNTO JACOB [GENESIS 31:11] AND SAYS "I AM THE GOD OF BETHEL, where you anointed a pillar" [Genesis 31:13]. In Genesis 28:11-17 where Jacob anointed a pillar, it was "JEHOVAH...the GOD of Abraham" that spoke to him. IN GENESIS 48:3 JACOB SAYS THIS "ANGEL OF GOD" THAT APPEARED TO HIM AT LUZ AND BLESSED HIM WAS "GOD ALMIGHTY."
"Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto HIM [the angel]: he found HIM [the angel] at Bethel, and there HE [the angel] spoke with us, even JEHOVAH, the GOD of hosts; JEHOVAH is his memorial name" [Hosea 12:4-5] "THE ANGEL" IS CALLED BY THE NAME OF "JEHOVAH" and "THE GOD OF HOSTS."
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Moses:
"And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush...And when JEHOVAH saw that he turned aside to see, GOD called unto him out of the midst of the bush...put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground." [Exodus 3:1-4]. Then in verse 6 the "ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" says, "I am the GOD of your father, the GOD of Abraham, the GOD if Isaac, and the GOD of Jacob." Moses was still speaking to "the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" but in verse 13 says Moses was speaking to God, "And Moses said unto GOD."
Moses, still in the same conversation with "THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH," "I will send you unto Pharaoh, that you may bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt" [Exodus 3:10].
Also, still in the same conversation with "THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH," "And they shall say to me, 'What is his name? What shall I say unto them'? And GOD said unto Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'; and he said, 'Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you...this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.'" [Exodus 3:13-15]. Jesus said He is "I AM" [John 8:58]. [See Revelation 1:8; 4:8].
Stephen said, "AN ANGEL APPEARED TO HIM [MOSES]...IN A FLAME OF FIRE IN A BUSH...THERE CAME A VOICE OF THE LORD, I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FATHERS, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM...him [Moses] has God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him [Moses] in the bush" [Acts 7:30-34].
"I AM JEHOVAH YOUR GOD, WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT" [Exodus 20:2]. "AND THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...SAID, I MADE YOU TO GO UP OUT OF EGYPT" [JUDGES 2:1]. The three persons in the Godhead are one God. The angel of Jehovah is one of the Godhead, but not the Father. "WHO, EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, COUNTED NOT THE BEING ON AN EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED." [Philippians 2:6].
Also Exodus 23:20-23
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Joshua: "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood A MAN over against him with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Are you for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but AS PRINCE OF THE HOST OF JEHOVAH AM I NOW COME. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What say my lord unto his servant? And the prince of Jehovah's host said unto Joshua, Put off the shoe from off your foot; for the place whereon you stand is holy. And Joshua did so. Now Jericho was tightly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. And JEHOVAH said unto Joshua" [Joshua 5:13-15]. He is called (1) a man (2) the prince of Jehovah's host (3) Jehovah. The "angel of Jehovah" and "the prince of the host of Jehovah" said the ground near them was holy. No common angel would say the ground He was standing on was holy. Only one of the Godhead.
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Judah when under the leadership of Joshua: "And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers; and said, I will never break my covenant with you: and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars. But, you have not hearkened unto my voice: why have you done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH spoke these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. And they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there unto JEHOVAH" [Judges 2:1-5]. THREE POINTS:
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers" [Judges 2:1]. Exodus 20:2 says, "I AM JEHOVAH YOUR GOD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...said... I will never break my covenant with you." In Leviticus 26:44-45 it is JEHOVAH who said He will never break HIS covenant He made with their ancestors.
THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said, "I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." But in Joshua 23:13 it was JEHOVAH that said He would not drive them out and they would be a snare and a thorn to them. The three persons in the Godhead are one God. The "ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" is one of the Godhead, therefore, is God.
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Gideon: "And the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH came, and sat under the oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. And the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH appeared unto him, and said unto him, Jehovah is with you, you mighty man of valor. And Gideon said unto him, Oh, my lord, if Jehovah is with us, why then is all this befallen us? And where are all his wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not Jehovah bring us up from Egypt? But now Jehovah has cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian. And JEHOVAH looked upon him, and said, Go in this your might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian: have not I sent you? And he said unto him, Oh, Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? Behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. And JEHOVAH said unto him, Surely I will be with you, and you shall smite the Midianites as one man. And he said unto him, If now I have found favor in your sight, then show me a sign that it is you that talks with me. Depart not hence, I pray you, until I come unto you, and bring forth my present, and lay it before you. And he said, I will tarry until you come again. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of meal: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. And the ANGEL OF GOD said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. Then the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there went up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH departed out of his sight. And Gideon saw that he was the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH; and Gideon said, Alas, O Lord Jehovah! For as much as I have seen the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH face to face. And Jehovah said unto him, Peace be unto you, fear not: you shall not die. Then Gideon built an altar there unto Jehovah, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites." [Judges 6:11-24]. In his DVD, "God, And His Messiah" Eddie K. Garrett says when Christ is called "Lord" it is used in the same way we use "Mr." and "Sir," and is not saying Christ is deity. In English "Lord" is used both as a title as we use "Mr." and in speaking of God as being God. In the Hebrew different words are used. The way Gideon changes words shows a progress in how he perceived whom he was speaking to.
In Judges 6:13 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "assign," which is used of men much as we use "Mr." "And Gideon said unto him Oh, my lord (assign -Mr.)."
In Judges 6:15 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "Adonai" which is a name for God.
In Judges 6:22 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "Jehovah." "Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight. When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the Lord (Jehovah), he said, 'Alas, O Lord God (Jehovah)! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord (Jehovah) face to face.'" [New American Standard Version].
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Muons wife: In Judges 13:3 it was "THE ANGEL OF THE LORD" that appeared to her. In Judges 13:9 it was "THE ANGEL OF GOD." In Judges 13:22 Manoah called this angel "GOD." "We shall surely die, for we have seen GOD." Both Manoah and his wife saw the Angel of God and thought they would die for they had seen God.
The New King James Version capitalized "Angel" in these passages when they considered it to be a "theophany" an appearance of God in a form that can be seen.
Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM" [John 8:58]. "The origin and meaning of the name Jehovah are especially brought out in relation to Israel. When Moses at the burning bush says to God: 'Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The Elohim of your fathers has sent me unto you; and they shall say unto me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them?' And the Lord said to Moses, 'I am that I am.' The words could be rendered, 'I will be that I will be,' and often the word is used in that sense, 'I will be with thee.' Its origin is exactly the same as that of Jehovah--being, existence--and certainly denotes the One who will always be: personal, continuous, absolute existence" Nathan J. Stone, "Names of God," page 20. In Exodus 3:13-15 "The angel of Jehovah" says he is "I am that I am." MOST CONSERVATIVE BIBLE SCHOLARS AGREE THAT THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH THAT IS USED OFTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS CHRIST.
There are other passages where the Angel of Jehovah is found, but these are more than enough to show Christ was working throughout the Old Testament. See Judges 13:1-22; Genesis 48:15-16; 32:28; 32:24; Exodus 23:20-21; 32:34; Isaiah 63:8-9. The angel of Jehovah is God, but He is distinguished from God the father, yet they are one God.
WHO IS TO BE WORSHIPPED? THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT IDOLATRY IS A SIN. IT MAY BE THE MOST CONDEMNED SIN IN THE BIBLE. The word of God is clear that only God is to be worshiped. Not other gods, idols, nothing in His creation, images, saints, angels, or Satan [Matthew 4:10]. Yet the Angel of Jehovah accepted worship, which created angels did not [Revelation 22:8-9]. Christ is WORSHIPPED through out the New Testament by many with no rebuked.
The wise men WORSHIPPED Christ [Matthew 2:2; 2:11].
A leper WORSHIPPED Christ [Matthew 8:2].
"There came a certain ruler, and WORSHIPPED Him" [Matthew 9:18].
"They that were in the boat WORSHIPPED him" [Matthew 14:33].
His disciples WORSHIPPED Him [Matthew 28:9].
Worship from a Canaanite woman [Matthew 15:22-28].
Worship from the mother of the sons of Zebedee [Matthew 20:20].
"And when they saw Him, they WORSHIPPED Him" [Matthew 28:17].
The man from the tombs, "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and WORSHIPPED Him" [Mark 5:6].
"He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, and they WORSHIPPED Him" [Luke 24:51].
The man born blind said, "Lord, I believe. And he WORSHIPED him" [John 9:38].
Thomas WORSHIPED Jesus [John 20:38].
"He (God) says, 'And let all the angels of God WORSHIP Him'" [Hebrews 1:6; Psalms 148:2].
"Worthy is the Lamb that has been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED" [Revelation 5:12-14].
The Bible is clear in it's teaching that only God is to be worshipped [Exodus 34:14; Psalms 81:9; 97:7; Isaiah 42:8; 48:11; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 19:10]. Jesus is worshipped. If He is not deity, to worship Him would be a sin and His accepting worship would make Him a sinner. If Millennialist were right when they teach He is not deity, the New Testament must be thrown out for it is a fraud, and Christ must be completely rejected. "Thus says JEHOVAH, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, JEHOVAH of hosts; I am the first, and the last; and besides me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6 is quoted and applied to Christ in Revelation 1:17.
robertwr.com
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH"
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" appeared frequently in the Old Testament, and is called, "angel of Jehovah," "Jehovah," and "God." He possesses characteristics that can only belong to deity, and he accepted worship, which created angels did not [Revelation 22:8-9]. He is called "God" or "Jehovah" a number of times, see Genesis 16:7-13, 22:11-18; 31:13; 48:14; Exodus 3:2-22; [Joshua 5:13-15 and Judges 6:13-24] Judges 2:1-3; Zechariah 3:11; [Genesis 32:30 and Hosea 12:4-5].
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Hagar:
Genesis 16:7-13 Before the birth of Ishmael. Moses, speaking by inspiration said, "And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And HE said, Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence come you? And where do you go? And she said I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, I will greatly multiply your seed, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said unto her, Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; and you shall call his name Ishmael, because JEHOVAH has heard your affliction...And she called the name of JEHOVAH THAT SPOKE UNTO HER, 'YOU ARE A GOD THAT SEES.'" In this passage Moses used three names referring to the same person (1) Jehovah (2) angel of Jehovah (3) God.
Genesis 21:16-20 After the birth of Ishmael. "Then she went and sat down opposite him, about a bow shot away, for she said, 'Do not let me see the boy die.' And she set opposite him and lifted up her voice and wept. And God heard the lad crying; and THE ANGEL OF GOD called to Hager from heaven, and said to her, 'What is the matter with you Hagar? Do not fear, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him by the hand; for I will make a great nation of him.'"
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Abraham:
Genesis 18:1-21 about the birth of Isaac and the destruction of Sodom. It was "The angel of Jehovah" that spoke to Abraham and stopped him from offering his son [Genesis 22:11-18], and it was this same "angel of Jehovah" that said, "You has not withheld your son, your only son, FROM ME." Verse 14 in the Septuagint reads, "And Abraham called the name of that place, The Lord has seen; that they might say today, in the mount the Lord was seen."
"The angel of Jehovah called to Abraham from heaven, and said, 'BY MYSELF I HAVE SWORN, DECLARES JEHOVAH'" [Genesis 22:16]. THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH called Himself "Jehovah." "By myself have I sworn, says Jehovah." The writer of Hebrews says, "For when God made promise to Abraham, since he could swear by none greater, he swore by himself...Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath; that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie" [Hebrews 6:13-18]. The angel of Jehovah calls himself "Jehovah" and the writer of Hebrews calls Him "God."
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Jacob:
"And, behold, JEHOVAH stood above it, and said, I am Jehovah, the GOD of Abraham...And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head, and set it up for a pillar...And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of the city was Luz at the first" [Genesis 28:13-19]. "THE ANGEL OF GOD" SPOKE UNTO JACOB [GENESIS 31:11] AND SAYS "I AM THE GOD OF BETHEL, where you anointed a pillar" [Genesis 31:13]. In Genesis 28:11-17 where Jacob anointed a pillar, it was "JEHOVAH...the GOD of Abraham" that spoke to him. IN GENESIS 48:3 JACOB SAYS THIS "ANGEL OF GOD" THAT APPEARED TO HIM AT LUZ AND BLESSED HIM WAS "GOD ALMIGHTY."
"Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto HIM [the angel]: he found HIM [the angel] at Bethel, and there HE [the angel] spoke with us, even JEHOVAH, the GOD of hosts; JEHOVAH is his memorial name" [Hosea 12:4-5] "THE ANGEL" IS CALLED BY THE NAME OF "JEHOVAH" and "THE GOD OF HOSTS."
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Moses:
"And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush...And when JEHOVAH saw that he turned aside to see, GOD called unto him out of the midst of the bush...put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground." [Exodus 3:1-4]. Then in verse 6 the "ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" says, "I am the GOD of your father, the GOD of Abraham, the GOD if Isaac, and the GOD of Jacob." Moses was still speaking to "the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" but in verse 13 says Moses was speaking to God, "And Moses said unto GOD."
Moses, still in the same conversation with "THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH," "I will send you unto Pharaoh, that you may bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt" [Exodus 3:10].
Also, still in the same conversation with "THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH," "And they shall say to me, 'What is his name? What shall I say unto them'? And GOD said unto Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'; and he said, 'Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you...this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.'" [Exodus 3:13-15]. Jesus said He is "I AM" [John 8:58]. [See Revelation 1:8; 4:8].
Stephen said, "AN ANGEL APPEARED TO HIM [MOSES]...IN A FLAME OF FIRE IN A BUSH...THERE CAME A VOICE OF THE LORD, I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FATHERS, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM...him [Moses] has God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him [Moses] in the bush" [Acts 7:30-34].
"I AM JEHOVAH YOUR GOD, WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT" [Exodus 20:2]. "AND THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...SAID, I MADE YOU TO GO UP OUT OF EGYPT" [JUDGES 2:1]. The three persons in the Godhead are one God. The angel of Jehovah is one of the Godhead, but not the Father. "WHO, EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, COUNTED NOT THE BEING ON AN EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED." [Philippians 2:6].
Also Exodus 23:20-23
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Joshua: "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood A MAN over against him with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Are you for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but AS PRINCE OF THE HOST OF JEHOVAH AM I NOW COME. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What say my lord unto his servant? And the prince of Jehovah's host said unto Joshua, Put off the shoe from off your foot; for the place whereon you stand is holy. And Joshua did so. Now Jericho was tightly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. And JEHOVAH said unto Joshua" [Joshua 5:13-15]. He is called (1) a man (2) the prince of Jehovah's host (3) Jehovah. The "angel of Jehovah" and "the prince of the host of Jehovah" said the ground near them was holy. No common angel would say the ground He was standing on was holy. Only one of the Godhead.
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Judah when under the leadership of Joshua: "And THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers; and said, I will never break my covenant with you: and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars. But, you have not hearkened unto my voice: why have you done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH spoke these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. And they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there unto JEHOVAH" [Judges 2:1-5]. THREE POINTS:
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers" [Judges 2:1]. Exodus 20:2 says, "I AM JEHOVAH YOUR GOD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."
"THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH...said... I will never break my covenant with you." In Leviticus 26:44-45 it is JEHOVAH who said He will never break HIS covenant He made with their ancestors.
THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH said, "I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." But in Joshua 23:13 it was JEHOVAH that said He would not drive them out and they would be a snare and a thorn to them. The three persons in the Godhead are one God. The "ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" is one of the Godhead, therefore, is God.
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Gideon: "And the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH came, and sat under the oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. And the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH appeared unto him, and said unto him, Jehovah is with you, you mighty man of valor. And Gideon said unto him, Oh, my lord, if Jehovah is with us, why then is all this befallen us? And where are all his wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not Jehovah bring us up from Egypt? But now Jehovah has cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian. And JEHOVAH looked upon him, and said, Go in this your might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian: have not I sent you? And he said unto him, Oh, Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? Behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. And JEHOVAH said unto him, Surely I will be with you, and you shall smite the Midianites as one man. And he said unto him, If now I have found favor in your sight, then show me a sign that it is you that talks with me. Depart not hence, I pray you, until I come unto you, and bring forth my present, and lay it before you. And he said, I will tarry until you come again. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of meal: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. And the ANGEL OF GOD said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. Then the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there went up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH departed out of his sight. And Gideon saw that he was the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH; and Gideon said, Alas, O Lord Jehovah! For as much as I have seen the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH face to face. And Jehovah said unto him, Peace be unto you, fear not: you shall not die. Then Gideon built an altar there unto Jehovah, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites." [Judges 6:11-24]. In his DVD, "God, And His Messiah" Eddie K. Garrett says when Christ is called "Lord" it is used in the same way we use "Mr." and "Sir," and is not saying Christ is deity. In English "Lord" is used both as a title as we use "Mr." and in speaking of God as being God. In the Hebrew different words are used. The way Gideon changes words shows a progress in how he perceived whom he was speaking to.
In Judges 6:13 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "assign," which is used of men much as we use "Mr." "And Gideon said unto him Oh, my lord (assign -Mr.)."
In Judges 6:15 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "Adonai" which is a name for God.
In Judges 6:22 "Lord" is from the Hebrew "Jehovah." "Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight. When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the Lord (Jehovah), he said, 'Alas, O Lord God (Jehovah)! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord (Jehovah) face to face.'" [New American Standard Version].
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Muons wife: In Judges 13:3 it was "THE ANGEL OF THE LORD" that appeared to her. In Judges 13:9 it was "THE ANGEL OF GOD." In Judges 13:22 Manoah called this angel "GOD." "We shall surely die, for we have seen GOD." Both Manoah and his wife saw the Angel of God and thought they would die for they had seen God.
The New King James Version capitalized "Angel" in these passages when they considered it to be a "theophany" an appearance of God in a form that can be seen.
Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM" [John 8:58]. "The origin and meaning of the name Jehovah are especially brought out in relation to Israel. When Moses at the burning bush says to God: 'Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The Elohim of your fathers has sent me unto you; and they shall say unto me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them?' And the Lord said to Moses, 'I am that I am.' The words could be rendered, 'I will be that I will be,' and often the word is used in that sense, 'I will be with thee.' Its origin is exactly the same as that of Jehovah--being, existence--and certainly denotes the One who will always be: personal, continuous, absolute existence" Nathan J. Stone, "Names of God," page 20. In Exodus 3:13-15 "The angel of Jehovah" says he is "I am that I am." MOST CONSERVATIVE BIBLE SCHOLARS AGREE THAT THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH THAT IS USED OFTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS CHRIST.
There are other passages where the Angel of Jehovah is found, but these are more than enough to show Christ was working throughout the Old Testament. See Judges 13:1-22; Genesis 48:15-16; 32:28; 32:24; Exodus 23:20-21; 32:34; Isaiah 63:8-9. The angel of Jehovah is God, but He is distinguished from God the father, yet they are one God.
WHO IS TO BE WORSHIPPED? THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT IDOLATRY IS A SIN. IT MAY BE THE MOST CONDEMNED SIN IN THE BIBLE. The word of God is clear that only God is to be worshiped. Not other gods, idols, nothing in His creation, images, saints, angels, or Satan [Matthew 4:10]. Yet the Angel of Jehovah accepted worship, which created angels did not [Revelation 22:8-9]. Christ is WORSHIPPED through out the New Testament by many with no rebuked.
The wise men WORSHIPPED Christ [Matthew 2:2; 2:11].
A leper WORSHIPPED Christ [Matthew 8:2].
"There came a certain ruler, and WORSHIPPED Him" [Matthew 9:18].
"They that were in the boat WORSHIPPED him" [Matthew 14:33].
His disciples WORSHIPPED Him [Matthew 28:9].
Worship from a Canaanite woman [Matthew 15:22-28].
Worship from the mother of the sons of Zebedee [Matthew 20:20].
"And when they saw Him, they WORSHIPPED Him" [Matthew 28:17].
The man from the tombs, "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and WORSHIPPED Him" [Mark 5:6].
"He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, and they WORSHIPPED Him" [Luke 24:51].
The man born blind said, "Lord, I believe. And he WORSHIPED him" [John 9:38].
Thomas WORSHIPED Jesus [John 20:38].
"He (God) says, 'And let all the angels of God WORSHIP Him'" [Hebrews 1:6; Psalms 148:2].
"Worthy is the Lamb that has been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED" [Revelation 5:12-14].
The Bible is clear in it's teaching that only God is to be worshipped [Exodus 34:14; Psalms 81:9; 97:7; Isaiah 42:8; 48:11; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 19:10]. Jesus is worshipped. If He is not deity, to worship Him would be a sin and His accepting worship would make Him a sinner. If Millennialist were right when they teach He is not deity, the New Testament must be thrown out for it is a fraud, and Christ must be completely rejected. "Thus says JEHOVAH, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, JEHOVAH of hosts; I am the first, and the last; and besides me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6 is quoted and applied to Christ in Revelation 1:17.
robertwr.com
The first thing to explain is the difference between Theon and Theos. Both words mean God equally. The difference is Theon is in the accusitive case (it is the direct object of the sentence) and theos is in the nominative case (it is the subject of the sentence).
In the English, word order within a sentence informs the reader of which words are the subject and which word is the direct object. This is not true in the Greek. The clues used to figure out the subject and direct objects of a sentence are called "case endings".
The root of God in the Greek is : Theo
The ending sigma (singular) shows that Theos within a sentence is the subject of that sentence. Therefore, the case ending is nominative or a singular masculine.
The ending ἦν (nominative) shows that Theon within a sentence is the direct object. Therefore, the case ending is accusative or singular masculine.
And if both nouns in a sentence both end in a sigma, as in John 1:1, the definite article, ho, is called the "indicating subject", and its function is to point out to the reader that logos, not theos, is the subject of the clause. This is plain Greek 101.
Another form is Theou, which is genitive.
Of all those who have studied Greek on this list will testify that the inflectional differences in Greek nounsmerely indicates the place or function it has within the sentence. An example in English is:
the Lord/the Lord's
The former may be used in the nominative case (and other cases in Eng.), while the inflection of the latter indicates that it is in the genitive case. But there is no qualitative nor quantitative difference that can be made simply by virtue of the inflection.
TR below, which was derived from the Vulgate, written primarily by Jerome, in the 5th century AD.
John's first assertion is that "In the beginning was the Word." Which beginning? Considering the whole context of the prologue and discourse in its entirety, many have identified this beginning as the same beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1.
But most see that the assertion of the Apostle goes far beyond that.
The key element in understanding this, the first phrase of this verse, is the form of the word "was," which in the Greek language in which John was writing, is the word ἦν (the "e" pronounced as a long "a" as in "I ate the food"). It is a timeless word - that is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the "beginning" as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. Therefore, the Word is eternal, timeless. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at "the beginning," for He, God, Christ, predates that beginning.
John is very careful in his language at this point. Throughout this section of his prologue and discourse, John carefully contrasts the Word, and all other things. He does so by consistently using ἦν of the Logos, the Word, and by consistently employing a totally different verb in reference to all other things. This other verb is "to become" (γίνομαι). It is used of John the Baptist in verse 6, of the world in verse 10, and the children of God in verse 12. Only when we come to verse 14 does John use "to become" of the Word, and that is when the Word "became flesh."
This refers to a specific point in time, the incarnation, and fully demonstrates John's intentional usage of contrasting verbs.
John is not alone in this. Jesus contrasted Abraham's "becoming" with His own eternal existence in John 8:58 in the same way.
The Psalmist contrasted the creation of the world with the eternity of God in Psalm 90:2 in the LXX, by using the same verbs found in John 1:1 and 14.
Hardly seems coincidental, does it?
We have seen that the Word is eternal.
John filled the Word with personality and identified the Word not as some fuzzy, ethereal essence that was the guiding principle of all things, (as the Greeks thought it did), but as the eternal Son of God, the One, God, Who entered into time, and into man's experience as Jesus of Nazareth at the time of conception in Mary. The "Word" reveals that Jesus is the mind of God, the thought of God, His full and living revelation, and He is God. Jesus did not just come to tell us what God is like - He showed us in person, because He is, I AM. He is the revelation of God in the flesh.
John did not stop here. He did not leave us to simply know the eternity of the Word. The next phrase says, "and the Word was with God." Again we find the verb "was" cropping up, again pointing to the timelessness of the subject at hand. The Word was with God. The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means "to be in company with someone" (1) or to be "face-to-face."
It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship.
Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.
This phrase, if taken completely alone, would be very confusing for anyone as we have seen over and over again, since John has already asserted the eternality of the Word. Now he clearly distinguishes between the Word and God. He asserts that they are distinguishable. "God" and "Word" are not interchangeable terms.
Then, is John talking about two "gods?"
Can more than one being be fully eternal?
John was a monotheistic Jew. He could never believe in more than one Being Who can rightly be called "God."
How then is this to be understood?
This phrase must be taken with the one that follows. We read, "and the Word was God." Again, the eternal ἦν.
John avoids confusion by telling us that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus, as we know Him as the Word, does not constitute everything that is included in the Godhead.
In other words, John is not teaching the ancient heresy known as Sabellianism, which taught that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are simply three different aspects of one person, i.e., Jesus is the Father, the Father is the Spirit, and so on.
Instead, John here asserts the full Deity of Christ, while informing us that He is not the Father, but that they ("God" and the "Word") have eternally co-existed together since the beginning of time.
This last phrase has come under heavy fire throughout this thread and many others. This passage teaches that the Word, as to His essential nature, is God. He did not use the adjective, theios, which would describe a divine nature, or a god-like one.
Instead, he used [i]theos[/], the very word John will use consistently for the Father, the "only true God" John 17:3. He uses the term three times of Jesus in the Gospel, here, in 1:18, and in John 20:28.
It can not be doubted that John would never call a creature theos.
His upbringing and Jewish heritage forbad that. John would have us realize that what the Word was in eternity was not merely God's coeternal fellow, but the eternal God's self. John of Zebedee walks a tight line here. By the simple ommission of the article ("the", or in Greek, ho) before the word for God in the last phrase, John avoids teaching Sabellianism, while by placing the word where it is in the clause, he defeats another heresy, Arianism, which denies the true Deity of the Lord Jesus. A person who accepts the inspiration of the Scriptures can not help but be thrilled at this passage. John goes on in verse 2 to reiterate the eternal fellowship of the Father and Son, making sure that all understand that "this one," the Word, was (there it is again) in the beginning pros ton theon, with God.
Their fellowship and relationship precedes all else, and it is timeless.
As icing on the cake, for many of you that adhere to this heresy of Christ not being God, John then precludes anyone from misunderstanding his claim that Jesus is eternally God by writing verse 3.
"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
One can hardly be more inclusive than that. There is simply nothing that is existent anywhere that was not created by the Word. He created everything, as Hebrews 1 point out directly to you all.
Obviously, therefore, if one can be described as creating everything, one must be the Creator, and certainly not a creation. The Word is the Creator. All people reading John's words would understand that the Creator is God, not some lower being created by God to do the work for Him. By not qualifying his statement, John assured that we could correctly understand his intention and his teaching concerning Christ, the Word. He is eternally God, the Creator.
Christ is God, and is to be worshipped, because He is God.
JESUS AS REVILED IN JOHN'S GOSPEL
THE PERSON WHO CAME FROM GOD AND RETURNED TO GOD
The theme of John's Gospel is Jesus who is God, was with God before the world was, came from God, made eternal life available to man, and went back to God. One cannot believe this Gospel and believe the view of many Millennialist that Jesus was just a man and did not exist before His birth. JESUS THE WORD WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD - JESUS, THE WORD, WAS GOD- HE MADE ALL THING
• "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. He was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS COME INTO BEING BY HIM, and apart from Him nothing came into being that came into being" [John 1:1-2].
• "He was in the world, and THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM" [John 1:10].
• "And the Word became flesh, and dwelled among us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten from the Father" [John 1:14].
• 1 John 1:1-3.
• "That which was from the beginning,"
• "That which we have heard,"
• "That which we have seen with our eyes,"
• "That which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us)."
• "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also"
o "In the beginning was the Word" [John 1:1].
o "That which was from the beginning" [1 John 1:1]. EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN
• "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am'" [John 8:58]. EQUAL WITH GOD - ONE WITH GOD
• "For this cause, therefore, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" [John 5:18].
• "I and the Father are one" [John 10:30]. JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD
• "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" [John 1:18]. JESUS MADE HIMSELF OUT TO BE GOD
• "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good word we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" [John 10:30-34]. JESUS HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF
• "For just as the Father his life in Himself, even so, He give to the Son also to have life in Himself" [John 5:26]. JESUS THE BREAD OF LIFE-THE POWER TO GIVE AND SUSTAIN LIFE AND RAISE THE DEAD
• As bread sustains physical life, believing in Christ sustains eternal life and the person that believes has this bread of life. Christ has the power and will raise him or her from the dead [John 6:47-63]. The water of life [John 4:14]. If Jesus were just a man, He would not have the power to give life or raise the dead. JESUS WAS SENT BY GOD FROM HEAVEN - HAS SEEN GOD
• "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him" [John 3:17]
• "That the father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me" [John 5:36-37]
• "Jesus said to them; 'My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me'" [John 4:34]
• "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him" [John 5:23]
• "He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life" [John 5:24]
• "My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" [John 5:30]
• "The very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me" [John 5:36-37]
• "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" [John 6:29]
• "As the living Father sent Me" [John 6:57]
• "Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God" [John 6:46]
• "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone" [John 8:29]
• "Do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world" [John 10:36]
• "But the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment" [John 12:49]
• "He who receives Me receives Him who sent Me" [John 13:20]
• "But now I am going to Him who sent Me" [John 16:5]
• "For the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth for You, and they believed that You did send Me" [John 17:8]
• "As You did send Me into the world" [John 17:18]
• "That the world may believe that You did send Me" [John 17:21]
• "That the world may believe that You did send Me" [John 17"23]
• "And these have known that You did send Me" [John 17:25] JESUS CAME DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN - DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN
• "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man" [John 3:13].
• "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world...The Jews therefore were grumbling about Him, because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven'...How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'...I am the living bread that came down out of heaven" [John 6:32-51].
• "This is the bread which came down out of heaven" [John 6:58].
• "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world" [John 18:37]. JESUS ASCENDING BACK TO HEAVEN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE
• "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before" [John 6:62].
• "For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. I come forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father" [John 16:27-28]. JESUS GOING TO HEAVEN TO PREPARE A PLACE OF US IN HEAVEN
"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also" [John 14:2-3].
• "I go to the Father" [John 14:12].
• "If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father" [John 14:28].
• "Jesus knowing that His hour came that He should depart out of this world to the Father" [John 13:1].
• JESUS ONE WITH GOD
• "That they may be one, even as We are" [John 17:11].
• "That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You" [John 17:21].
• Just as believes are one, but not one person; so also is God and Christ one, but not one person.
• GOD LOVED JESUS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
"For You did love me before the foundation of the world" [John 17:24].
robertwr.com
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I had noticed the boxing gloves out.
I think the Mod shut us both down, and before Christmas no less...LOL
