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Let me propose some common questions to get the discussion started.
1. What are we saved from if there is no hell?
2. Why did Jesus have to die if all are saved?
3. If there is no hell, then we can do whatever we want... so why follow Christ? Why the need to repent?
I will answer these later if no one else does.
(FYI if you are new to city-data, UR=Universal Reconciliation=the belief that the scriptures shows that all will ultimately be saved)
1.) The teachings of Jesus provide the way to become sin free and eradicate all sin from our souls. That is what we are saved from. Our own sins. Hell is a place as well as a condition. The condistion of our soul determines our place in the spirit world. Hell is darkness and heaven is light.
2.) Jesus did not have to die. His mission was complete before He died. What He taught is what saves us from sin. He taught Divine Love.
3.) There is a hell but hell is the condition of our souls if they do evil deeds or harm other souls without remorse. Once in the spirit world, all will have a chance to reconcile through repentance through self forgiveness and forgiveness of others. The path that Jesus spoke of through Divine Love is the "short-cut". When we ask for Divine Love, it slowly eradicates sin and the inclination to sin so that our souls become purified. This process is much quicker than repenting as taught in the bible.
In the end, hell will be closed and all that will remain is the natural love heavens and the Celestial Heavens. Divine Love gets you to the Celestial Heavens while purifying our natural love that we are born with gets you in the natural love heavens.
I think its clear Finn doesn't want to actually discuss UR, he just wants to complain about it. Probably because it is impossible to actually defend ET... (ok prove me wrong ETers! )
Anyway since the thread is already 32 minutes old and no ETer has asked a question yet, let me again play the part of an ETer and ask some even more basic questions and then you guys (the URers) can answer.
1. UR is false because the bible talks about hell all over the place
2. Jesus spoke about hell more often than He spoke about heaven/Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else: ie. all the references to eternal worms, gnashing teeth, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, hellfire, etc.
Let me propose some common questions to get the discussion started.
1. What are we saved from if there is no hell? = Eternal separation from God
2. Why did Jesus have to die if all are saved? = So His Holy Spirit would be available to us ALL within our consciousnesses.
3. If there is no hell, then we can do whatever we want... so why follow Christ? Why the need to repent? = To obtain the cover of Jesus' perfection . . . otherwise we must rely on our own works to be worthy of entrance into the kingdom.
I will answer these later if no one else does.
(FYI if you are new to city-data, UR=Universal Reconciliation=the belief that the scriptures shows that all will ultimately be saved)
My answers in red. Jesus connected ALL human consciousness to God consciousness . . something we were unable to achieve on our own. This makes us all eternal and available to join God. Jesus also provides a cover under His love (grace) for those of us who can only partially be like Him in "love of God and each other." All we need to do is "repent" (replay the bad parts of our lives and ask Jesus to forgive us). Anything we do not repent of . . . we will need to have refined out of us based on our works . . . along with those who do not know of or believe in Jesus.
Let me propose some common questions to get the discussion started.
1. What are we saved from if there is no hell?
Sin and death ...
2. Why did Jesus have to die if all are saved?
All are saved BECAUSE Jesus died. His blood sacrifice WAS the price necessary for everyone to be saved ...
3. If there is no hell, then we can do whatever we want... so why follow Christ? Why the need to repent?
We love Christ and the father who sent him because they first loved us.
Those who follow Christ were chosen by God and he revealed himself to them through his son and spirit. We follow Christ because he redeemed the world and we were blessed enough to be renewed first(first fruits) among all his creation.
The same reason why i love all that is good and worthy of acceptance.
I will answer these later if no one else does.
(FYI if you are new to city-data, UR=Universal Reconciliation=the belief that the scriptures shows that all will ultimately be saved)
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
I think its clear Finn doesn't want to actually discuss UR, he just wants to complain about it. Probably because it is impossible to actually defend ET... (ok prove me wrong ETers! )
Anyway since the thread is already 32 minutes old and no ETer has asked a question yet, let me again play the part of an ETer and ask some even more basic questions and then you guys (the URers) can answer.
1. UR is false because the bible talks about hell all over the place.
That is a false statement to begin with because the word hell is used to translate 4 different words in the original manuscripts the Hebrew word Sheol(unseen/grave), and the Greek words Hades(unseen/grave - The Greek equivalent of Sheol), tartaroo(prison of the fallen angels), and Gehenna(the valley of the sons of Hinnom, a literal place on earth that used to be a trash dump that is just outside of the city of Jerusalem).
2. Jesus spoke about hell more often than He spoke about heaven/Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else: ie. all the references to eternal worms, gnashing teeth, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, hellfire, etc.
That is also a false statement altogether, a flat out lie, as Christ spoke of heaven far more than any of the other places which were later translated as hell ...
Okay here's my two cents ... My answers are above in green ...
1. UR is false because the bible talks about hell all over the place.
That is a false statement to begin with because the word hell is used to translate 4 different words in the original manuscripts the Hebrew word Sheol(unseen/grave), and the Greek words Hades(unseen/grave - The Greek equivalent of Sheol), tartaroo(prison of the fallen angels), and Gehenna(the valley of the sons of Hinnom, a literal place on earth that used to be a trash dump that is just outside of the city of Jerusalem).
2. Jesus spoke about hell more often than He spoke about heaven/Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else: ie. all the references to eternal worms, gnashing teeth, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, hellfire, etc.
That is also a false statement altogether, a flat out lie, as Christ spoke of heaven far more than any of the other places which were later translated as hell ...
Okay here's my two cents ... My answers are above in green ...
<ET_MODE>
That's just your "non-ET" view. We all know sheol/hades is the bad compartment of "hell" where the sinners will be punished while they are awaiting the final judgment to be thrown into the lake of fire. Gehenna is referring to the lake of fire where all those not in the book of life will be tormented forever along with Satan and his minions.
Regarding point #2, sure Jesus may have only talked about the specific word "hell" a few times, but certainly He did talk about undying worms and unquenchable fire, as well as a furnace of fire where people gnash their teeth. Hell is real man, you are going to go there if you don't believe - you will be gnashing your teeth along with all the worms.
Hell is real because Jesus said its better to cut out your eye or cut off your arm than to end up in hell. I know its not pretty, but thats what the bible says so it is the truth.
The scriptures are there. and the word of Jesus should have precedents over UR churches, all teachers, and preachers and even other scripture that may contradict itself,,,,,,, I see that UR is to legalist and maybe to dry in the Power of Holy Spirit.......I see that UR have some truth that Jesus with the Love of God but they need to stop blaming God for the scriptures on Hell....... I see UR a to scary for my belief.... But I belief that Jesus has a plan for UR but I Do not know what it is......
Personally I see ET as a sad and evil doctrine that shamelessly reduces the love and character of God to the ravings of a madman. You might as well laugh as cry...
I am saddened that I believed in this doctrine for most of my life. I am saddened that it misleads so many and causes so much harm in the world.
ETers will never be able to explain how God being all-powerful and all-loving, can purpose or allow people to be tormented forever. They are forced to conclude either:
1. God is not all-powerful, in that man's free will frustrates God forever AND/OR
2. God is not all-loving, in that He doesn't love those who are tormented forever (and intends for them to be tormented forever)
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