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...but IMO the Calvinist doctrine is unscriptural, among other adjectives. The Bible says that God loved THE WORLD and Jesus was sent to save THE WORLD, implying all of His human creation. Calvinism says that those verses are a lie, and that God only loves and sent Jesus to die for a (relative) few.
Regarding the OP, the Bible says, as quoted earlier in this thread...
John 10:29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
I assume that "no man" includes ourselves, and therefore if we were once saved...
We are always saved.
First of all, Calvinism does not say that verses in the Bible lie! Calvinism says that those verses are misunderstood--there is a big difference.
First of all, John 3:16 does not use the word "world" as all inclusive. The world must be seen in relationship to the "whosoever." In other words, God so loved the world of mankind to such an extent that He gave His only begotten Son so that those of that world who would believe on Him could have eternal life. In the context, then, this verse speaks of salvation only to those who believe and not to all inclusively.
For whom did Jesus die? Jesus said--
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the SHEEP. . . . I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. . . . My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give THEM eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:11ff).
Jesus died for His sheep only--those who were given to Him by the Father. No one can take them from Him--ever!
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the SHEEP. . . . I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. . . . My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give THEM eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:11ff).
Jesus died for His sheep only--those who were given to Him by the Father. No one can take them from Him--ever!
Preterist
Preterist, Jesus gave Himself for His sheep and for all men. All men are really His sheep because all are lost and in need of a Savior. He is calling out some of His sheep now, but God has given Jesus all things (John 13:3) and all belong to Him. Please prayerfully consider Colossians 1:15-20, 1 Timothy 4:10, and 1 Timothy 2:1-7, 1 John 2:2 and their contexts. God bless.
Colossians
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2: 1-7
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who *desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 John 2:2
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the those of the whole world..."
God bless.
Literally:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the SHEEP. . . . I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. . . . My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give THEM eternal (aionios-age lasting, of or relating to the age, age enduring) life, and they shall NEVER perish; (shall not be perishing for or unto the age or eon) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:11ff).
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-23-2007 at 11:30 PM..
Reason: addition, clarification
I agree that "no man" means "no man", however, I think that means someone other than ourselves. I know this isn't a popular view, a lot of people believe "once saved, always saved"...however, I believe that the individual CAN pluck his/her self out of the Father's hand.
I always hear "then you have to question if the person was really saved to begin with"...I don't buy that. People have been known to change their minds since the beginning of time. There are just too many factors that can come up in a person's life that can indeed make them change their heart/mind. A good example of this is in Bud's thread about the former deacon that is now in prison for murdering approximately 20 women. WHY did this happen? Who knows. But who are we to question whether he really was ever saved or not? If he was in fact saved, does that mean that he is still going to go to Heaven given the crimes he committed...without rededicating himself and true repentance? I think it's a good possibility he may have been saved and CHOSE to walk away (for whatever unfathomable reason). Of course, it is possible that he wasn't saved as well...
In any case, I believe that someone CAN turn their back on God. I think one can be a believer and due to circumstances in their life, they turn against Him. To me, that would be the "unpardonable sin", but that evidentially isn't what the Bible teaches it to be.
kawgpz550: Can you unregenerate yourself? Can you unredeem yourself by paying a price greater than Jesus paid to purchase you out of sin? Can you unadopt yourself? Can you unjustify yourself? In new birth, we are made a new creation; we become something we were not before through a miraculous work of God. Only God can undo the mighty works He performs in us at salvation to make of us a new creation--this is a process even more complex than the changing of a caterpillar into a butterfly. The butterfly cannot return to the cocoon; man cannot return to his mother's womb, and the born again child of God CANNOT become unborn again!
I believe this entire issue of the possibility of a believer losing his salvation is based upon a shallow understanding of the matchless, awesome, unfathomable and constitutional transformation that takes place in a person in salvation. It is not something we can choose to put on or put off. If is a matter of who we are--who we have been made; not in and of ourselves but of God! Furthermore, an essential aspect of salvation and the new birth from above entails the indwelling and convicting of the Holy Spirit so that the believer's transformed heart seeks to live for God even though he might sometimes fail.
Man is not a sinner because he sins; he sins because He IS a sinner--constitutionally and intrinsically. The saved man, however, though he might still sin, is no longer a sinner constitutionally and intrinsically. He has been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! That cannot be undone!
kawgpz550: Can you unregenerate yourself? Can you unredeem yourself by paying a price greater than Jesus paid to purchase you out of sin? Can you unadopt yourself? Can you unjustify yourself? In new birth, we are made a new creation; we become something we were not before through a miraculous work of God. Only God can undo the mighty works He performs in us at salvation to make of us a new creation--this is a process even more complex than the changing of a caterpillar into a butterfly. The butterfly cannot return to the cocoon; man cannot return to his mother's womb, and the born again child of God CANNOT become unborn again!
I believe this entire issue of the possibility of a believer losing his salvation is based upon a shallow understanding of the matchless, awesome, unfathomable and constitutional transformation that takes place in a person in salvation. It is not something we can choose to put on or put off. If is a matter of who we are--who we have been made; not in and of ourselves but of God! Furthermore, an essential aspect of salvation and the new birth from above entails the indwelling and convicting of the Holy Spirit so that the believer's transformed heart seeks to live for God even though he might sometimes fail.
Man is not a sinner because he sins; he sins because He IS a sinner--constitutionally and intrinsically. The saved man, however, though he might still sin, is no longer a sinner constitutionally and intrinsically. He has been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! That cannot be undone!
Preterist
Everything you said makes complete sense, however, the bolded portion would mean that we have no "free will". As well, the analogies you used in the first paragraph are physiological changes. One cannot change physiology, but one can change their mentality.
I see good arguments for both sides, however, I tend to think that we can make the choice of turning our back on God. I think most people that turn their back, may eventually return, however, I think it is possible for someone to reject Him...It's "free will". Either we have it, or we don't.
Ah, 1 Tim 4:10, the classic "universalistic" verse. And one of my faves.
Yes, as the verse clearly states, Jesus is the saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY believers.
Love to all,
Jeff
Jeff: If this verse is to mean that God [theos not xristos] is the savior of all men, why the emphasis on "especially believers?" How are the "all men" saved in a different way than believers?
Furthermore, there is no definite article before soter (savior). This does not deny the possibility of the use of the English "the" here, but it does not demand it. Most often when soter is used, it is found with the possessive "our"--our Savior. The verse is just as easily and accurately translated "God is savior of all men, especially believers."
In additon, there is nothing in this verse that demands that this aspect of "savior" has to do with salvation. The term can be used in the sense of "deliverer" or "preserver." As such, 1 Timothy 4:10 could be translated with this sense--God is preserver or deliverer of all men, especially believers. Colossians tells us that "in Him all things consist" (1:18). In Acts 17:28 Paul told the Athenians (unsaved men) that in God "we live and move and have our being." God preserves all men in this life, but He especially preserves believers--beyond this world and into the next.
1 Timothy 4:10 must be seen in connection with the many verses and passages that restrict salvation to those chosen by God before the foundation of the world.
Or we cannot exclude the view that Paul is teaching (if that is how you want to translate it) that God is the preserver of all men but He is the preserver of believers in a special way in this life or age and in the age to come. If God is interested in preserving all men in this life, why would He not be interested in what happens to all men beyond this world and into the next? Why would He even care to be their Preserver in this life if He created them with the intention of consigning them to everlasting death or everlasting hell? Are we not all the offspring of God as Paul says in Act 17:28? Would you agree that God is just, merciful, righteous, no respecter of persons, love? Why would the gospel (good news) be preached to every creature under heaven if it only applies to a select few? It would be like a doctor proclaiming to all that he had medicine to heal all of the sick, however, he only intends to provide it for a handful. Would that not be a cruel joke? Do you believe in eternal hell, Preterist? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-24-2007 at 12:23 AM..
Everything you said makes complete sense, however, the bolded portion would mean that we have no "free will". As well, the analogies you used in the first paragraph are physiological changes. One cannot change physiology, but one can change their mentality.
I see good arguments for both sides, however, I tend to think that we can make the choice of turning our back on God. I think most people that turn their back, may eventually return, however, I think it is possible for someone to reject Him...It's "free will". Either we have it, or we don't.
If we have free will, then God is not sovereign. My analogies are not physiological; they are constitutional--not those things that make us human through biology but those things that make us sinners through our innate ties to the first Adam. This is a spiritual and not a physiological issue although it is very real and actual.
Again, if one has been born again from above, he has been MADE a NEW creation--not simply declared one. All of the mighty works of God have been performed within him. One must be MADE righteous and not simply declared righteous in order to enter God's presence eternally. Old things are passed away; all things are made new. How is the new than made old again by the simple will of the one who has been made new?
How can anyone choose God when His word clearly says that there are NONE who seek Him (Rom. 1)? We do not seek Him because in Adam we do not want Him. No one can ever want Him unless and until God gives that one a desire through grace. There is none good--no NOT one! Without God's grace, fallen man will never have the goodness required to see himself in his lost, hopeless condition.
Salvation is so much more complicated than you are viewing it. Again I ask--God has purchased you with the shed blood of His Son--can you unredeem yourself? He owns you. Do you have a greater price to pay in order to buy yourself out of His possession? And how are you to purchase yourself from Him if He has declared you NOT FOR SALE? Can you unregenerate yourself? Can you destroy the new life He has given you in Christ? Are you more powerful than God who has declared that nothing can separate you from His love and that no one can snatch you out of His hand? But you can? By whose power do you thwart God's power?
Can you draw up the legal papers necessary to unadopt yourself? God has made you a joint heir with Christ? By what power and authority can you rescind that judicial and official adoption decree? He has MADE you His child? Do you, then, by your own authority and power rip yourself from His family?
Can you unjustify yourself when God the judge has removed his royal gown, stepped down from His regal bench, and stood in your place of judgment and taken your punishment upon Himself thereby declaring you absolved of all charges? Do you now negate that official and judicial act by the mere operation of your will? By what authority do you do that? Are you a member of a Supreme Court which sits in judgment of God's rulings and overrides them? That can never be!
Sadly, as long as people hold to a simplistic view of the complexities of God's work of salvation which constitutionally and eternally makes of the one saved something fundamentally, intrinsically and spiritually different from what he once was outside of Christ, this debate will continue.
With all due respect and Christian kindness, kawgpz550, I do not think you fully realize WHO YOU ARE in Christ. Just that little preposition "in" transfers you into a place from which you cannot remove yourself. You are IN Christ, my friend. No one, not even yourself, has the will or the power or the authority to take you out!
At the point that one repents and invites Jesus Christ into his or her life, their name is written in the book of life. However, we must keep in mind that, beyond the point of salvation, in order to grow and mature spiritually, we must continue to feed and nurture our faith. In fact, in order to become sharp and strong, the word serves as our spiritual nourishment.
Just as at the marriage ceremony you and your husband were legally "married", beyond the ceremony the real work of building the relationship and life together required constant nurturing, learning, growing, etc... Our relationship with the Savior is the same. Imagine if, a day after your wedding, your husband chose to ignore you, never want to be with you, took no interest at all in you, and couldn't tolerate even your name being mentioned? While you would still love and be faithful to him (as Christ is still faithful to your husband), he would be naive to say to you "I went through the ceremony so I'm your husband aren't I?" and expect that to be sufficient!
Salvation is comprised of several things: First, the initial invitation to open ourselves up to Christ; second, taking the baby steps to learn, grow and develop into mature Christians, and third, life as a mature christian (i.e. serving as a knowledgeable witness and servant of the Most High God).
It sounds as if your husband has some strong holds on him that are preventing him from trusting God fully. He may feel guilty about some things or has some behaviors in his life that he does not want to let go of (e.g. drinking, pornography, past resentment, anger, etc..). Keep gently witnessing to him and continue to pray for him. As well, keep teaching your children the right way.
Salvation isn't supposed to be a prison, it's supposed to be a liberating and rewarding experience. Most folks fight it because they are under the belief that being saved means sacrificing all of the fun and even hidden things in which they find pleasure....though temporary that pleasure may be.
Or we cannot exclude the view that Paul is teaching (if that is how you want to translate it) that God is the preserver of all men but He is the preserver of believers in a special way in this life or age and in the age to come. If God is interested in preserving all men in this life, why would He not be interested in what happens to all men beyond this world and into the next? Why would He even care to be their Preserver in this life if He created them with the intention of consigning them to everlasting death or everlasting hell? Are we not all the offspring of God as Paul says in Act 17:28? Would you agree that God is just, merciful, righteous, no respecter of persons, love? Why would the gospel (good news) be preached to every creature under heaven if it only applies to a select few? It would be like a doctor proclaiming to all that he had medicine to heal all of the sick, however, he only intends to provide it for a handful. Would that not be a cruel joke? Do you believe in eternal hell, Preterist? God bless.
ShanaBrown: God is also a God of wrath, judgment, and justice. Our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. Would you agree that God many times came in judgment in the OT against those who professed to love Him and honor Him? We are not an all-knowing, all-powerful, completely holy and righteous being that we can sit in judgment of God's decisions.
The Scriptures make it clear that some will be saved and some will perish. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in EVERLASTING CHAINS under DARKNESS for the judgment of the great day, as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE" (Jude 7).
"Then He will also say to those on His left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food . . . . Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:41ff).
"So it was that the beggar [Lazarus] died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. . . Then he cried and said, ". . . send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME" (Luke 16:22ff).
"Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:15).
Yes, I believe in eternal hell. And I believe in a holy, righteous, and just God who does what He wants and when He wants. If what He does seems unjust and unloving and unkind to us, it is because WE are not God and WE do not see the whole picture as He does. Again, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts!
ALL are headed for eternal damnation--it is by God's grace that He saves any from that path of destruction. Read Romans 9 concerning the attempt of mortal man to point a finger at God and cry foul!
"What shall I say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have RAISED YOU UP, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy ON WHOM HE WILLS, and WHOM HE WILLS, He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O MAN, WHO ARE YOU to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'why have you made me thus?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the VESSELS OF MERCY, which He has PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY . . . " (Romans 9:14ff).
We do not see things as God sees them, but we have His word for revelation concering these matters.
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 11-24-2007 at 01:01 PM..
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The Bible says that God loved THE WORLD and Jesus was sent to save THE WORLD, implying all of His human creation. Calvinism says that those verses are a lie, and that God only loves and sent Jesus to die for a (relative) few.
