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Tell us, how do you know the parents? Since you seem to know so much about them and their parenting abilities.
There is no need for you to be scarsactic. Everything I said is basically parenting 101. I don't need to know them personally to know that what they did is irresponsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whocares811
Although I think you are correct about the need to supervise children (of any age), I hope this doesn't turn into a "blame the parents" thread.
The simple fact is that most people are capable of severe misjudgments, and this one had tragic consequences.
I would bet that the parents are blaming themselves quite enough without having a lot of strangers chiming in and blaming them, too. The family of the toddler have nothing but my sympathy until if and when it is proven that they were incredibly and grossly negligent -- for example, if they were drunk -- and nothing that I have read so far leads me to believe that was the case.
Your absolutely right. I was just responding to the posts on this thread that were along the lines of:
"the parents did nothing wrong"
"this was unavoidable"
"the signs should have been more specific"
I was simply saying that there were many quite normal (and responsible) parenting behaviors that could have prevented the attack.
So it does not do any good to have any signs posted you will still see people ignoring the signs and they know better.
The signs sort out the ignorant from the idiotic. The ignorant will read the sign, learn from it, and heed the warning. The idiotic will ignore the signs and do what they will, sometimes with tragic results. I feel bad for the ignorant who are hurt simply because of a lack of knowledge. But as for the idiotic - let Darwin do what he wills with them. If they have no sense of self-preservation, that's not our problem to remedy.
There is no need for you to be scarsactic. Everything I said is basically parenting 101. I don't need to know them personally to know that what they did is irresponsible.
Your absolutely right. I was just responding to the posts on this thread that were along the lines of:
"the parents did nothing wrong"
"this was unavoidable"
"the signs should have been more specific"
I was simply saying that there were many quite normal (and responsible) parenting behaviors that could have prevented the attack.
I disagree that normal parenting might have prevented this horror. Helicopter parenting, on the other hand, may have but it also may have prevented the family from leaving home. In such a controlled environment as a Disney park one would not expect such a danger to exist, especially with no warning. After all, Disney built the lake and beach and furnished it to attract families.
In such a controlled environment as a Disney park one would not expect such a danger to exist....
And right here, folks, is a sterling example of the fundamental problem.
A Disney park is NOT "such a controlled environment." It is not hermetically sealed inside an airtight dome. It sits out in the open (in either Florida or California), and is subject to all of the environmental hazards those places have to offer, which in Florida include sun injuries (severe sunburn, heat exhaustion, heat stroke), thunderstorms and lightning, several species of venomous snakes, alligators, dangerous water currents, and dangerous sea creatures (including sharks and jellyfish). Anyone who honestly believes the statement I quoted above is simply not using his or her brain. How could Disney ever completely eliminate all the hazards I listed? They can't, and it's unreasonable to expect them to do so. (It might be reasonable for them to warn possibly naive guests, though.)
But that's not what happened. In fact, any one of those scenarios you mentioned would have dramatically decreased the chance of a successful alligator attack. Because what you described above is a responsible parent, which is the exact opposite of these folks. Here is a link showing just how much more dangerous an alligator attack in water is over one that's on land. There is a reason why we are taught that the first rule when spotting a gator is to get out of the water.
This and numerous other studies have shown that alligators are exponentially more successful when the attack came WHILE THE ALLIGATOR WAS SUBMURGED. Meaning, if he had to strike into land there would have been a good chance that the child would have survived. To say the parents share no fault in this scenario would be inaccurate.
They share a big part of the blame. First, the Sheriff in this case confirmed that the child was the ONLY ONE in the water at the time of the attack:
Meaning even if he was in just 1 feet of water he was pretty much unsupervised. Anyone who is a responsible parent would agree with me. The boy was only 2 years old! I wouldn't even let my two year old walk with me in a Publix parking lot without holding my hand. And these parents think it ok to let him walk around an area they are unfamiliar with, in the middle of the night and go into the water where it says "no swimming" by himself? That's just crazy irresponsible!
Think about it. Even if the no swimming sign referred to rough water or some other hazard; how can you as a parent just let your kid go into any water that could be potentially dangerous without PHYSICALLY being right next to him. In fact, I would say no really responsible parent would let their kid get into any water that had a no swimming sign posted. The fact that the Sheriff confirmed that the child was the only one in the water says it all. The younger a child is the more susceptible he/she is to danger. The fact that they would let a 2 year do what they let him do shows just how irresponsible they are.
Uh, if an alligator grabs your child while it is in your arms, the attack is so powerful and fast that it could still be fatal. Think snatch and grab, right out of your hand. Crocodilians grab with all they've got and then quickly submerge into the water. All in a second. Ever watch Nile crocs pick off a hapless wildebeest that is in a group. Grab, spin around, submerge in water with victim OR go farther out to drown the victim. The easy thing when it comes to stories like this is to blame the parent (i.e. "If it were MY child, I would have done.......") In the case of the gorilla death, blame the parent is appropriate. In this case? No. The culpability largely falls on Disney with this one. The signage was totally ambiguous and should have clearly stated "No swimming! there may be dangerous animals (including alligators) in the lagoon". But like I said, using the specific word "alligator" would be terribly bad for business for a place that peddles almost a virtual reality. Heck, I go there specifically for that mythical experience. If it were just for rides and such, you'd just go to Six Flags or a local park. But you go to Disney for the Disney experience.
This is a tragic wakeup call for everyone - the public and Disney. The "happy" illusion is just that, an illusion. This is real. One now clearly understands that there are alligators in Disney's waters and folks will probably be far more cautious. Disney will implement even higher security measures to reduce any risk to both themselves and the public. That's it, people know there are alligators now. Put the proper signs up. Re-evaluate your animal control protocol. Too much is at risk here -- too many kids, too many people who are not from Florida.
No attacks within 50 years means nothing. The one that did happen has resulted in a child fatality. That's all it takes when it comes to a place whose bread and butter comes from kiddies and their parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whocares811
Although I think you are correct about the need to supervise children (of any age), I hope this doesn't turn into a "blame the parents" thread.
The simple fact is that most people are capable of severe misjudgments, and this one had tragic consequences.
I would bet that the parents are blaming themselves quite enough without having a lot of strangers chiming in and blaming them, too. The family of the toddler have nothing but my sympathy until if and when it is proven that they were incredibly and grossly negligent -- for example, if they were drunk -- and nothing that I have read so far leads me to believe that was the case.
But it has become a "blame the parent" thread regardless of it is warranted or not. We all can beat ourselves, after the fact, about misjudgments. These folks didn't do anything unusual. What they were "guilty" of was ignorance. But then again, I'd wager many are ignorant of the fact that there are dangerous predators that can eat children within a made made lake in a sprawling, closed off park. Yes, the park is in Florida, but people don't associate dangerous animals with the Magic Kingdom. Considering the place is family friendly to the extreme, people automatically assume or think that Disney takes whatever measures it needs to take to prevent such animals/events from happening. I openly admit that it never dawned on me that there would be four large alligators in the lagoon, or alligator sightings by the Tom Sawyer island, or heck even a gator in the bathroom. Why is that? Because Disney has an animal control team that takes care of those things. Obviously something was off why four gators were in that lake. It's a false sense of security indeed but I can totally understand it.
I spoke with my coworker about this very thing and even she was shocked that there were alligators in the park. She visited last year, 68 years old, and isn't a woman who lacks common sense.
And right here, folks, is a sterling example of the fundamental problem.
A Disney park is NOT "such a controlled environment." It is not hermetically sealed inside an airtight dome. It sits out in the open (in either Florida or California), and is subject too all of the environmental hazards those places have to offer, which in Florida include sun injuries (severe sunburn, heat exhaustion, heat stroke), thunderstorms and lightning, several species of venemous snakes, alligators, dangerous water currents, and dangerous sea creatures (including sharks and jellyfish). Anyone who honestly believes the statement I quoted above is simply not using his or her brain. How could Disney ever completely eliminate all the hazards I listed? They can't, and it's unreasonable to expect them to do so. (It might be reasonable for them to warn possibly naive guests, though.)
The company built an artificial lake and bordered it with an artificial beach and furnished their fake beach with furniture to attract the masses. The lake is fed by an aqueduct that crosses a major road. It all sounds and looks quite controlled to me.
They, at one time, allowed swimming on the lake and still promote canoeing and water skiing there. There are some small nicey-nice "Please No Swimming" signs which in most of the world would indicate something as benign as a lack of lifeguards. Other areas of Florida, on both public and private property display alligator warning signs but they would interfere with the aura promoted by Disney and no doubt affect their bottom line.
Disney was well aware of the population of gators in the area but it was not in their best financial interest to share that information with their customers.
Unfortunately, it's very unlikely. People who witness an alligator atack are typically shocked at how fast these seemingly slow, cumbersome beasts move when they decide to, and their attacks are not just sudden but extremely violent and savage. A child that size was quite likely already crushed and/or torn to death by the time even one person could have gotten involved, and the gator probably had her back underwater before more than a couple of people could have reacted.
This is what they do, and they're good at it - they attack from ambush, rushing out from concealment in an explosive split-second, immediately sieze their prey, and race directly back to the water to drown it and tear it apart. People even just a few yards away would barely have time to register in their minds what they were seeing before it would have been all over. Had the victim been a full grown adult, and the alligator relatively small, there might have been some chance, but a 2-year old... that tiny, fragile body... once that gator said "go," it was already over.
This. I don't know where some people get the idea that alligators rarely attack or that they do so only when protecting their young, etc. All I know is that when I was on one of the Indian reservations in the Everglades, and I sat down on the dock where the airboats were, and dipped my toes in the water on a hot day, I was instantly told, "Don't do that!" Tribal people in the area know alligators to be unpredictable and dangerous. A little splashing in the water can get their attention and provoke them. In view of the conflicting "lore" being posted here, I prefer to err on the side of caution, and keep myself and any part of my extremities out of the water in 'gator country.
Enough with the thing about signs. Little kids don't read, horsing-around teens don't pay attention, and adults are distracted. Why not the obvious?? Erect a huge barrier chainlink FENCE around all bodies of water at Disney World. This is a DISNEY crime, not keeping their patrons safe from what is on THEIR land.
I live in Naples, not far from the Everglades. While I don't know the exact name of it, there is an Agency of Wildlife Control. If a homeowner spots a gator on there property (common), they can call people specially trained who will capture and remove it. Have you ever heard of the Gator Boys? They do this for a living and have a TV show. They do not kill the gators but release them. I assume probably in the Everglades. Alligators are also a very popular food item here, so I suppose they are also sold, killed, and used as meat.
As someone else said, there have been instances of people here finding gators swimming in their (uncaged) backyard pools.
Gators are as much a part of Florida, as are the Palm Trees, and Disney World.
That is good that they will do that (remove them from your place), but to me they should do this THROUGHOUT FLORIDA as a whole. I'm someone who loves swimming, loves swimming in lakes, loves the idea of being able to swim during the winter months somewhat--it would only be natural that I'd want to move to FL so I could do that. Why should I have to surrender that to alligators? Why not release them into the Everglades (which doesn't look like a place anyone would hanker to swim) and let people be free to adventure and enjoy the outdoors without harassment?
Everyplace is different, but in TX we have wild feral hogs, and if they tear up your land you just shoot them and move on with your life. We haven't had much problems like that with alligators, but if one shows up at my place causing problems, I'm taking it out. I'd do the same with woodpeckers too if they started showing up (they haven't), I'll start caring about their plight the day their name is on the title to my house and they're making the payments. I don't see that happening, so I don't much care what's good for them. (Then again, if there was a way shown to me where you could catch them and release them elsewhere AND that method wasn't either more expensive or more of a hassle, I'd be OK with it.)
I don't much have sympathy for that "it's their home" or "they were here first"--to heck with that. I'm a human being, compared to them I matter and they don't matter a wit. I say it's time to start hunting again, or relocating en masse.
I don't much have sympathy for that "it's their home" or "they were here first"--to heck with that. I'm a human being, compared to them I matter and they don't matter a wit. I say it's time to start hunting again, or relocating en masse.
The thing is you can fairly well assume that every body of fresh water is going to have a gator in it.
They are just that pervasive.
Moving them to the Everglades or shooting them at sight is not going to solve any issues.
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