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I feel like this whole debate is to attach DC to NE cities like NYC. Well great but the NE in general is far more than NYC and one single aspect does not make or break a place to be part of it which is really more geographic based.
IS DC part of the Boswash or even NE corridor in the modern day sense - yes. Is it part of the NE, probably not in the truest sense.
Additionally to me DC is the biggest outlier of the cities here, it developed in different ways and feels the most different to me. Just being affluent has nothing to do with a region
Yep! Neither do cultural or demographic changes, hence MD and DE not being northeastern.
I acknowledge that Maryland, for example, can make an argument based on a variety of historical, geographical, and present-day factors to be included in the Northeast -- but when states/urban regions further south start to adopt a cultural atmosphere that is more similar to points north (e.g., the Charlottes, Atlantas and Miamis of the world), we obviously can and should still recognize them as Southern.
Two points I agree with here. First I agree that it is a variety of factors that should be used to figure out what region a state is in.
But secondly you reach a point you have to simply acknowledge geography and the map. No matter how much Virginia and North Carolina get built up, they are simply too far South for most people in the Northeast to see them as Northeast.
But secondly you reach a point you have to simply acknowledge geography and the map. No matter how much Virginia and North Carolina get built up, they are simply too far South for most people in the Northeast to see them as Northeast.
So fast forward 40 years from now. Virginia is only 54% non-Hispanic White. Democrats carry the state by huge margins election after election. The White people in Richmond and Hampton Roads are virtually indistinguishable from those in NOVA. Southern accents and culture have been completely annihilated in urban areas.
What do we now call it? Would it make sense to put Virginia in the same region as South Carolina? And if Maryland's former southerness didn't preclude it from transforming into something "non-southern," then the same should also be true of Virginia, no?
I feel like this whole debate is to attach DC to NE cities like NYC.
This is really what it is. Moreso NYC and New England. It's more prestigious than being identified with anywhere in the South.
It's sort of similar to how neighborhood boundaries magically expand once gentrification kicks in. Either that or the neighborhood gets a whole new brand (i.e., Hudson Heights) if it's not in sufficient proximity to trendier neighborhoods.
I feel like this whole debate is to attach DC to NE cities like NYC. Well great but the NE in general is far more than NYC and one single aspect does not make or break a place to be part of it which is really more geographic based.
IS DC part of the Boswash or even NE corridor in the modern day sense - yes. Is it part of the NE, probably not in the truest sense.
Additionally to me DC is the biggest outlier of the cities here, it developed in different ways and feels the most different to me. Just being affluent has nothing to do with a region
I think that's the crux of the argument here. By logical extension, many people have referenced places like Richmond and even the Hampton Roads area as being the latest southern bookend of the Northeast Corridor. Can anyone honestly envision the former capital of the Confederacy mentioned as being in the same region as Philly, New York or Boston?
Bottom line -- it is possible for there to be economic linkages and development patterns that span across regions. That they are part of different regions does not mean cities cannot still share certain similarities and modern-day connections.
I think that's the crux of the argument here. By logical extension, many people have referenced places like Richmond and even the Hampton Roads area as being the latest southern bookend of the Northeast Corridor. Can anyone honestly envision the former capital of the Confederacy mentioned as being in the same region as Philly, New York or Boston?
Well, Amtrak's Northeast Regional does terminate in Newport News, VA. And a city like Richmond looks a lot more similar to DC or Baltimore than it does to Birmingham or New Orleans.
Besides, if the here and now, August 23, 2014, is all that matters, what difference does it make that Richmond was the capital of the confederacy? We can't live in the past.
History plays a part, but the vast majority of regular people live in the here and now. Living in the past and imagining that its worst aspects somehow define present-day realities is backward thinking. At best, it is personal bias and at worst, it is almost a kind of paranoia.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it".
That's exactly it. If you look at incomes and educational attainment levels, Pennsylvania is pretty average. Philadelphia and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh have some "yuppies" but they hardly dominate their metros. And Pennsylvania is indisputably Northeastern.
Yeah, I would say Pennsylvania as a whole has a strong blue-collar, working class ethos. That's the case even though much of the state has deindustrialized and transitioned into a more conventional, knowledge-based economy. Even many of the educated whites you meet in the Philly or Pittsburgh regions are often the first in their family to earn a college degree. Overall, there's sort of this powerful psychological identity tied up in the concepts of hard work and industriousness even if you've never a done a day's worth of grueling, manual labor in your life.
I mean, if I had to come up with one unifying theme for the state, applicable to all four corners, I would say HARD WORK. That's "Pennsylvania values."
And values, as well as a strong psychological connection to the past, can be transmitted from one generation to the next even though the contemporary generation finds itself in completely different circumstances. African Americans and Jews are a good example of this (I speak from authority since I am both). The percentage of Blacks who have been bitten by German Shepherds, forced to sit on the back of the bus, have witnessed a lynching, etc. is obviously very small. Many have prospered and face no such adversity but yet "struggle" remains a powerful part of Black identity. It's the same thing with many Jews. Despite all of the success, there's still a sense of being an oppressed minority.
In high school, one of my friends was Irish and he said his dad would never let potatoes go to waste. LOL.
So fast forward 40 years from now. Virginia is only 54% non-Hispanic White. Democrats carry the state by huge margins election after election. The White people in Richmond and Hampton Roads are virtually indistinguishable from those in NOVA. Southern accents and culture have been completely annihilated in urban areas.
What do we now call it? Would it make sense to put Virginia in the same region as South Carolina? And if Maryland's former southerness didn't preclude it from transforming into something "non-southern," then the same should also be true of Virginia, no?
I think there has been entirely too much emphasis on this thread about demographics. I really don't care what percentage whites, blacks, Jews, Italians, Irish, Hispanics etc. are living in a state. For example, New England has an entirely different population then it had from 200 years ago but it is still New England. Discussing demographics are good for historical discussion but these days, when people are moving around so much, the whole country is getting diverse. Does that mean the whole country should be considered the Northeast?
The fact of the matter is the State government of Virginia considers itself to be a "South Atlantic State". Not a Northeast state, not a Midwest state, not a Western State. She has been Southern for 400 years. Her history, her system of local government, her educational system, and the majority of the states she borders - are Southern.
You ask if it makes sense to put Virginia in the same region as South Carolina? The answer is YES. In fact they have been doing it for hundreds of years.
I think there has been entirely too much emphasis on this thread about demographics. I really don't care what percentage whites, blacks, Jews, Italians, Irish, Hispanics etc. are living in a state. For example, New England has an entirely different population then it had from 200 years ago but it is still New England. Discussing demographics are good for historical discussion but these days, when people are moving around so much, the whole country is getting diverse. Does that mean the whole country should be considered the Northeast?
The whole country doesn't have the demographics of the Northeast. And the demographics of the Northeast are the product of a 300+ year history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
The fact of the matter is the State government of Virginia considers itself to be a "South Atlantic State". Not a Northeast state, not a Midwest state, not a Western State. She has been Southern for 400 years. Her history, her system of local government, her educational system, and the majority of the states she borders - are Southern.
The point is that that can change. If it could change for Maryland, a founding member of the Southern Legislative Conference, it can change for Virginia too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
You ask if it makes sense to put Virginia in the same region as South Carolina? The answer is YES. In fact they have been doing it for hundreds of years.
We've been putting Maryland and Delaware with those states for years too.
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