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There are many posters, myself included, who are compassionate. Contrary to your belief, my ability to empathize is not gauged by my stance on illegal immigration. It is possible to oppose open borders, the circumvention of our laws, MASSIVE illegal immigration, and the abuse of the hard-working taxpayers of this country……….and have a kind heart.
You castigate those of us who refer to illegals as “cowards” -– even accusing us of lacking basic decency. You have every right to your opinion, but you do not have the right to vilify us simply because our opinions differ from yours. You are not the arbiter of what constitutes decency and compassion. Nor do you have the ability to delve into our hearts and minds. Others can disagree with you without being heartless, vile, or ignorant.
Courageous people do not run from adversity; they are resolute, and face their problems head-on. It takes courage to fight for ones rights, and risk the threat of physical harm, or even death. A "coward" is the antithesis.
Obviously, you didn’t get the responses you anticipated; ergo, your tantrum, under the guise of sarcasm. Perhaps you thought your self-righteous indignation would put us all on a guilt trip. Perhaps your delusions of grandeur caused you to believe that YOU would change our minds……...YOU would convince us that illegal really isn’t illegal; and those “seeking a better life” are all paragons of virtue, deserving our utmost respect and compassion.
You will not change my mind, and I will not change yours. We will simply have to agree to disagree.
I actually did get the responses I anticipated. I'm just disappointed that I was not able to get anyone to understand where I'm coming from on this other than Macmeal. I've never tried to change anybody's stance on the issue itself, just trying to get more people to see a different side - one that few care to look at.
Most of you would believe that I'm pro-illegal immigration. I am not. I understand that it costs our citizens money, even if I haven't seen any hard evidence on how much. I know it's a fair amount. I think it's ridiculous how the government has handled the issue. And I can't fathom why businesses aren't held responsible for hiring illegal immigrants. It needs to be addressed. The incentives need to be taken away. I just have a different view of the immigrants themselves. To call them all 'cowards' is to generalize an entire group of people. And to paint an entire group with the same brush is wrong. That's like saying anyone who comes to the US (even legally) for a better life is a coward since they could not make their life better for their family where they were. Why didn't they just stay where they were and face adversity head-on?
I don't mind agreeing to disagree on this one. For the record, I never labeled anyone a racist or bigot. I do think a few have extremely harsh attitudes, not due to their stance on the issue, but by the terms they use to describe these people. I guess that's to be expected. Everyone has their own opinion and you'll find extremes on both sides.
The only real answer is a secure, National ID card, similar to a Passport. The program needs to be administered by a central agency, with the highest security. The ID should be Biometric, with perhaps fingerprint, DNA, retina, or some other mechanism to prove identity. Strict laws preventing the use of the data for other purposes must be implemented. I have a Passport and was never too sure what the concern of the privacy activists was.
The cost of the card should be borne by each citizen. Finally, any employer caught employing a non-citizen should be arrested and tried for treason. Anybody caught with a fraudulent document should be tried for treason. Anybody caught mfg. or distributing fraudulent documents should be executed. This sounds extreme, but I am serious.
I actually did get the responses I anticipated. I'm just disappointed that I was not able to get anyone to understand where I'm coming from on this other than Macmeal. I've never tried to change anybody's stance on the issue itself, just trying to get more people to see a different side - one that few care to look at.
Most of you would believe that I'm pro-illegal immigration. I am not. I understand that it costs our citizens money, even if I haven't seen any hard evidence on how much. I know it's a fair amount. I think it's ridiculous how the government has handled the issue. And I can't fathom why businesses aren't held responsible for hiring illegal immigrants. It needs to be addressed. The incentives need to be taken away. I just have a different view of the immigrants themselves. To call them all 'cowards' is to generalize an entire group of people. And to paint an entire group with the same brush is wrong. That's like saying anyone who comes to the US (even legally) for a better life is a coward since they could not make their life better for their family where they were. Why didn't they just stay where they were and face adversity head-on?
I don't mind agreeing to disagree on this one. For the record, I never labeled anyone a racist or bigot. I do think a few have extremely harsh attitudes, not due to their stance on the issue, but by the terms they use to describe these people. I guess that's to be expected. Everyone has their own opinion and you'll find extremes on both sides.
I wholeheartedly agree that our government is complicit, and should be held accountable for the problems created by illegal immigration. If our laws were being enforced, we would not have this problem, and there would be no need to debate this issue.
Even without credible statistics, common sense dictates that providing for millions of illegals would undoubtedly put a strain on this country. It is tantamount to a married couple being forced to use their income to provide for their family and 10 additional families. It simply can’t be done.
Legal immigrants are not “cowards” for choosing to relocate to this country. My ex, and a few of his siblings, chose to leave Argentina to attend college in the US. Eventually, they decided to make the U.S. their home. However, they did not come without financial means. Nor did they come ‘demanding’ anything. My parents made the decision to leave my birthplace in PA and relocate our family to Washington, DC. They certainly weren’t “cowards” for leaving. My dad simply received an attractive job offer, which he chose to accept. There is no realistic comparison between legal and illegal immigration; anymore than one can reasonably compare invited guests to burglars.
I fully recognize the "human" element; in particular, innocent children. As with any adult criminal behavior, children often suffer due to their parents’ poor judgment. Illegal aliens are no exception. However, unlike you, I do not consider the adults to be innocent victims of their circumstances.
My race fought and died for their rights in this country. They could have simply accepted their subservient existence, discrimination, and subhuman status. Their plight wasn’t easy, but they had the ‘courage’ to persevere. Why can’t illegal aliens remain in their countries, and fight for their rights and a better standard of living? Why aren’t so-called Hispanic advocacy groups, such as La Raza helping them to fight injustices in their countries of origin? I can only surmise that illegals lack courage, and La Raza, et al. have hidden agendas.
Legal immigrants are not “cowards” for choosing to relocate to this country. My ex, and a few of his siblings, chose to leave Argentina to attend college in the US. Eventually, they decided to make the U.S. their home. However, they did not come without financial means. Nor did they come ‘demanding’ anything. My parents made the decision to leave my birthplace in PA and relocate our family to Washington, DC. They certainly weren’t “cowards” for leaving. My dad simply received an attractive job offer, which he chose to accept.
You see Benicar, that's the point I'm trying to get across - you provided one example, that being of your family coming here legally. Everyones' situation is different. I've personally met illegal immigrants that do not fit the profile you suggest they all fit (cowards who came here demanding things). Not everyone fits that generalization. The ones who do make demands are a little difficult to understand, I'll admit. But they don't all do that.
Some came here to work because there wasn't any work available where they lived - which is why a lot of people come to this country. They're not all "honest victims" in the sense that they broke an immigration law to make ends meet. But they were victims of a severly broken economy that might not ever be fixed where they lived.
Most of us feel that they should have chosen a path that didn't negatively affect us, and that's understandable. It wasn't our problem and now we're paying for it. But that still doesn't mean they all fit the profile you've outlined.
You see Benicar, that's the point I'm trying to get across - you provided one example, that being of your family coming here legally. Everyones' situation is different. I've personally met illegal immigrants that do not fit the profile you suggest they all fit (cowards who came here demanding things). Not everyone fits that generalization. The ones who do make demands are a little difficult to understand, I'll admit. But they don't all do that.
Some came here to work because there wasn't any work available where they lived - which is why a lot of people come to this country. They're not all "honest victims" in the sense that they broke an immigration law to make ends meet. But they were victims of a severly broken economy that might not ever be fixed where they lived.
Most of us feel that they should have chosen a path that didn't negatively affect us, and that's understandable. It wasn't our problem and now we're paying for it. But that still doesn't mean they all fit the profile you've outlined.
I realize they are individuals. As such, they have individual motives for choosing to illegally enter the US. However, I simply cannot condone the flagrant lawlessness. I’m sure there are many ‘nice’ illegals. However, that does not alter their status, or absolve them of criminal behavior. Nor does it justify stealing identities of decent hard-working citizens to obtain employment. Identity theft is not a victimless crime.
Finally, any employer caught employing a non-citizen should be arrested and tried for treason. Anybody caught with a fraudulent document should be tried for treason. Anybody caught mfg. or distributing fraudulent documents should be executed. This sounds extreme, but I am serious.
With the quality of our justice system, aren't you worried that we might execute a few innocent people? Isn't that a little severe? I don't think it has to be that extreme. I think you're on the right track though.
In California, they have vehicle emissions testing stations that are licensed by the state. If those stations are found to be violating the state guidelines (and passing cars that should not pass) they will lose their license, which means their business is done. It's quite effective. I think employers should face similar policies. The potential financial loss would be incentive enough to make them do a proper background check. Before long, nobody would take the risk of hiring an illegal immigrant.
Those found with fraudulent social security numbers or identification should be tried for fraud and the sentencing should be more severe. Deportation should be an option. Those who supply fraudulent social security numbers should be punished even more severely.
If all of this is done, a wall would not even be necessary. Take away the incentives and make it difficult, and the floodgates would have much less water flowing through them. And the water that does come through will likely end up flowing in the opposite direction soon after.
I realize they are individuals. As such, they have individual motives for choosing to illegally enter the US. However, I simply cannot condone the flagrant lawlessness. I’m sure there are many ‘nice’ illegals. However, that does not alter their status, or absolve them of criminal behavior. Nor does it justify stealing identities of decent hard-working citizens to obtain employment. Identity theft is not a victimless crime.
I can vouch for your compassion, Benicar....I've followed your posts and know your 'heart is in the right place'. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, once again I have to say, much of the rancor here is a matter of culture.
We here (most of us) are "First World" people. We've been 'trained' since childhood to see our system of laws as "good", because 'we the people' wrote them. Thus HERE in our 'First World' society, obeying the law takes on a 'moral' dimension..it's "good" to live within the law, and "bad" to break it.
In Mexico, as in much of the world, the law is not fair...it's not something 'the people' came up with..it's something IMPOSED upon them from above. Therefore, in these societies, there's no moral imperative to 'obeying the law'..one obeys the law ONLY when one MUST.
We, in our naivete, feel that "WE obey the laws of OTHER countries when we go there...why can't THEY obey OUR laws"? The answer, of course, is culture. Poor Mexican illegals have no 'tradition' of willingly obeying or respecting laws, because where they come from, the laws have no moral imperative. They've never lived under laws that were written by "them"...There, one obeys the law when he MUST..but, if he can 'get away with it', there's no shame in BREAKING the law. Illegal immigrants don't respect OUR laws, nor do they respect their OWN....because they've never lived under ANY 'respectable' legal system.
Culture is everything..and there's NO misunderstanding quite as contentious, as a CULTURAL misunderstanding. The future promises more and more of such 'failures to communicate', as we charge full speed ahead into the multicultural 'ideal' we've set for ourselves. One man's 'wrong' is another man's 'right'....
In Mexico, as in much of the world, the law is not fair...it's not something 'the people' came up with..it's something IMPOSED upon them from above. Therefore, in these societies, there's no moral imperative to 'obeying the law'..one obeys the law ONLY when one MUST.
...
Even in the animal kingdom there are things that resemble laws. Stealing food, mating and trespass are some of them and the penalty for those transgressions can be death. Really, how much of the basic laws are imposed? Trespass and stealing are about as low on the totem as far as intelligence level as you can get. If you take something from somone you know it's stealing. A fake SS# is stealing. I'd wager every single person using fake documents knows they are fake.
Even in the animal kingdom there are things that resemble laws. Stealing food, mating and trespass are some of them and the penalty for those transgressions can be death. Really, how much of the basic laws are imposed? Trespass and stealing are about as low on the totem as far as intelligence level as you can get. If you take something from somone you know it's stealing. A fake SS# is stealing. I'd wager every single person using fake documents knows they are fake.
Not arguing with you at all..these things are illegal virtually EVERYWHERE. The question is, though, "who CARES?". If you live in a society where breaking the law isn't 'bad', then you have no moral imperative to follow laws, EXCEPT as they benefit you or your family..OR as necessary to stay out of jail.
Poor Mexicans can obviously benefit themselves and their families by breaking OUR laws. They have ALSO faced almost 'zero' penalty when they DO break those laws. So why would they want to obey them? Because it's the 'moral' thing to do? For most people in Third World societies, there IS no moral dimension to obeying...or DISOBEYING..the law.
Ask yourself THIS...do you, as an American, feel 'morally obligated' to obey the laws of China, or Russia?..probably not. If you WENT there, you might obey out of respect for your hosts..OR to avoid arrest. But you PROBABLY wouldn't feel any 'moral imperative' to abide by the laws of countries that, essentially, don't 'care about' their own people.
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