If Islam is the best religion , why are many of the muslims criminals? (atheist)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by .....think

Tricky i wont go as far as saying all christains are hipocrites however alot of then are

Such as my friend, Simple Living and Freedom

My point is that not all Christians are hypocrites, but most other Christians do not correct these 'radical' Christians.
I mean, in Europe Christians being homosexual is a non-issue, while in America it is turned into a big deal.
Why is that?
What makes American Christians so different from European Christians?

Are American Christians just more patriotic than their European cousins?
Because European Christians agree with me that Nazis can be Christian, they even would go so far as admitting that the age old European Christian hatred for the Jews (their anti-Semitism) is partly responsible for Hitler's rise to power in Germany.

[HsvMike]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

They do it in the name of their nation which by large is Christian.
Jesus would not condone torture, so I don't think that Christians should condone it either. And if Jesus would know that someone was being tortured he would try to stop that.
Isn't this not why Jesus sacrificed himself?

Just because the majority of the United States is Christian does not mean that the soldiers are doing it because of or for their belief. What about the non-Christian soldiers? They would not want to be put into the same category as Christians saying they have said agenda.

As I said the military is a job. Do your 4, 6, or make a career out of it, but then you retire and go on from there. It is not a religion. You can't confuse the two.

I love how non-Christians try to tell Christians what they should or shouldn't condone. Or expect them to have higher standards but yet ridicule them for their beliefs. You shouldn't tell us how to conduct ourselves just like you don't like us telling you how to conduct or live your life. You can't have it both ways.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by HsvMike

As I said the military is a job. Do your 4, 6, or make a career out of it, but then you retire and go on from there.

You are either a Christian or you aren't.
You cannot as a Christian say that torture is un-Christian, but because you're a soldier and your superior commanding officer ordered you to torture people you simply obeyed his orders.
That would be proof of hypocrisy.

I love how non-Christians try to tell Christians what they should or shouldn't condone. Or expect them to have higher standards but yet ridicule them for their beliefs.

And yet Christians have no problem flaunting their 'superior God-given' morality by telling others how they should live.
Neither does the American government have a problem with telling non-Americans how they should live.
Is that a coincidence?

[HsvMike]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

You are either a Christian or you aren't.
You cannot as a Christian say that torture is un-Christian, but because you're a soldier and your superior commanding officer ordered you to torture people you simply obeyed his orders.
That would be proof of hypocrisy.

There are a lot of different Christian sects with a lot of different beliefs throughout. And people ( even Christians ) have their own minds and can decide what they do and don't believe and also what they will and won't do. It would actually be a lot nicer if there was just one Christian religion where everyone can agree on interpretation. I am a Christian but if someone had information that would save my family or my fellow Americans, I would do whatever I had to do to get that information. I would only care about being judged by God, not anyone else and I would have to take any punishment given to me.

And yet Christians have no problem flaunting their 'superior God-given' morality by telling others how they should live.
Neither does the American government have a problem with telling non-Americans how they should live.

Now I remember you just bringing this up in another post. So an eye for an eye is ok then? Personally I don't flaunt anything about how I live or believe in front of anyone else. I respect everyone else's beliefs, but I better get the same courtesy.

Let's make sure everyone knows how all of this got started or what got the ball rolling here. America was attacked. That started this whole thing from Afghanistan to Iraq regardless of the ties between the two. If we were never attacked none of this would be happening. We have a saying that if you mess with the bull, you will get the horns. They brought it on themselves.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by HsvMike

America was attacked.

I agree and now ask the question why they had chosen America as their target? Why did these terrorists not attack Switzerland or some other country that has no army? They would have been easy pickings, right?
They targeted America because they see America backing Israel and Saudi Arabia, which resulted in creating a greater rift between the rich Arabs and the poor Arabs.
I am not condoning the terrorist's acts; I'm only saying that America is not squeaky clean on these matters.
You just can't throw a stone in a lake and not expect any ripples in the water.

And it was not the Muslim terrorists hideous acts that turned it into a religious war, but the reaction of the American government by declaring war on terror. Terror is an all encompassing emotion; everyone can be seen as a terrorist.
Declaring a war on terror is exactly the same as declaring a war on heathens; in the eyes of a believer everyone who does not belong to his religious group can be seen as a heathen.

So the Muslim terrorists have chosen their targets because they see the American economy and the American army as their enemy.
The Twin towers and the Pentagon were chosen because the terrorists wanted to strike at the heart of the American economy and the American Defence department.

[HsvMike]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I agree and now ask the question why they had chosen America as their target?Why did these terrorists not attack Switzerland or some other country that has no army? They would have been easy pickings, right?

Ok from what I remember and I know there are many that can either confirm or correct me on this but they said that when America was defending Kuwait that the soldiers went over some holy land that in their opinion they should have never been. This is what I remember from the begining.

They targeted America because they see America backing Israel and Saudi Arabia, which resulted in creating a greater rift between the rich Arabs and the poor Arabs.

I am sure that has something to do with it as well.

I am not condoning the terrorist's acts; I'm only saying that America is not squeaky clean on these matters.
You just can't throw a stone in a lake and not expect any ripples in the water.

I would not pretend to think America is squeaky clean in anything. We have our faults just like any other country. The "ripples" you speak of. I think the world was surprised with the efficency of our military and how quickly we removed certain individuals from power. I do not want to get on this topic too much, but you can't "win" a war with pretty much hand-cuffing our troops. The United States has proven what kind of power we are and it worries a lot of other countries with how fast even in this day and age changes can be made.

And it was not the Muslim terrorists hideous acts that turned it into a religious war, but the reaction of the American government by declaring war on terror. Terror is an all encompassing emotion; everyone can be seen as a terrorist.
Declaring a war on terror is exactly the same as declaring a war on heathens; in the eyes of a believer everyone who does not belong to his religious group can be seen as a heathen.

While I see what you are saying I do disagree with you. It was a war on "terror" because we did not know exactly who was responsible. The government I am sure had a good idea or had a short list but did not know immediately for sure.

It was all about religion for them. That is why they agreed to do what they did for the rewards in heaven.

One thing I don't think you understand is that we do have a separation of church and state regardless of what people say or the views of the President. Christianity is not the "religion" of the United States. While the majority of us are Christians, it does not define us as a country. That is propaganda at work. It is Muslim fundamentalists vs. the United States ( including every major religion, athiests, and everyone in between ).

So the Muslim terrorists have chosen their targets because they see the American economy and the American army as their enemy.
The Twin towers and the Pentagon were chosen because the terrorists wanted to strike at the heart of the American economy and the American Defence department.

Everyone knows why they chose their targets. They wanted to cripple the United States financially as well as militarily. But they failed in both parts. While no one wants the Americans to get in their business, on the flip side there is contempt because we don't get involved until something happens to us personally. The war on terror, as well as us entering WWII. Terrorism has been going on for a long while but it took us to get attacked on our homeland in order for us to get involved along with the bombing of Pearl Harbor. So we can't win either way. Either we should stay out of the business of the rest of the world or we react too late and are criticized for that.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by HsvMike

Ok from what I remember and I know there are many that can either confirm or correct me on this but they said that when America was defending Kuwait that the soldiers went over some holy land that in their opinion they should have never been. This is what I remember from the begining.

This is not the beginning.
Start with the forming of Israel after WWII.

It was all about religion for them. That is why they agreed to do what they did for the rewards in heaven.

Making it religious is irrelevant and easily makes things impractical.
The thing is that all so called religious actions are also political.
We should only focus on the political effects, but still keep in mind that they might have a religious origin if only to better understand the opposition.

While the majority of us are Christians, it does not define us as a country.

The fact still is that Bush's decisions can all be explained as being religiously motivated. Especially since he is backed by a powerful Christian (right-wing) organisation.
But I agree that Bush decisions can also be explained politically & economically, but the fact still remains that he is still backed by a large and powerful political Christian organisation.

They wanted to cripple the United States financially as well as militarily.

They wanted to strike terror.
I doubt that any nation can be crippled that easily.

[HsvMike]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

This is not the beginning. Start with the forming of Israel after WWII.

I meant the 9/11 attacks. Not the begining of it all.

Making it religious is irrelevant and easily makes things impractical.
The thing is that all so called religious actions are also political.
We should only focus on the political effects, but still keep in mind that they might have a religious origin if only to better understand the opposition.

You are the one who said that we made it a religious war, and not them. I made a point saying they started it being religious, now it is irrelevant? But yes I do agree that it is for the most part always political even when we focus on the religion. It comes down to power and money.

The fact still is that Bush's decisions can all be explained as being religiously motivated. Especially since he is backed by a powerful Christian (right-wing) organisation.
But I agree that Bush decisions can also be explained politically & economically, but the fact still remains that he is still backed by a large and powerful political Christian organisation.

We have a system of checks and balances here in this country. The President does not have the backing of the House and Senate. The President cannot go to war with out their approval. So while he does get all of the blame, there are a lot more to blame than just him. What is this big and powerful Christian organization that you speak of?

They wanted to strike terror.
I doubt that any nation can be crippled that easily.

They can dream can't they. Well whatever they set out to do, I think it back fired.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by HsvMike

I meant the 9/11 attacks. Not the begining of it all.

The forming of Israel is the start of 9/11.
I mean if there was no Israel there would have been to trouble between America an the Middle East.

I made a point saying they started it being religious, now it is irrelevant?

9/11 is more a political statement than religious, why else would America declare war on the Islam?
Riddle me this; Did your American government formed an alliance with Israel only out of political reasons or does religion also play a part in it?
Or is it possible that it maybe is both?

We have a system of checks and balances here in this country.

I'm sure it works fine on paper but explain to me how Bush was able to invade Iraq while they had no WMD?

They can dream can't they. Well whatever they set out to do, I think it back fired.

I'm sure that explaining dreams is a lot easier than explaining reality. When you explain dreams you cannot be wrong because you cannot prove that your explanations are wrong.
Fortunately reality has cause and affect, so once you can prove causalities you can also prove which theories are implausible and / or unrealistic.

BTW I believe that only dropping a nuke will cripple a nation.

[cncracer]

Originally Posted by camping!

Someone telling a person "you are going to burn a thousand years in hell for not being X" is a hell of a lot different then someone sawing off your head with a dull blade while saying "you are going to burn a thousand years in hell for not being X". If you honestly cannot tell the difference, then you have a problem differentiating between fantasy and reality.

People insult Catholicism every day ...... on this board even. I'll engage this posters, defend a religion from lies and misunderstandings. But I have neither felt physically threatened, nor did I feel the need to physically assault someone because they don't like the religion I was raised with.

There is good reason to raise a flag in regards to the Catholic Church. I think in my case it is to keep eyes open. The church has changed it pattern only to hide the acts it commits. The last 100 years it has been connected with the largest religious holocaust in a thousand years. In the last ten years it was involved in ten of thousands of deaths. Scattered between that time period is the undercurrent of crime, murders, control, organized crime, and in general bad decisions by the church. This Leopard has not changed it spots. You need to open your eyes and look!