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Old 01-01-2009, 04:47 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,183,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Did you forget to put up the credible evidence? At this point I'd like to know what you consider credible before continuing to discuss, because I really don't know what your point is here, other than you have credible evidence that he was literate.
Evidence that Mohammad was probably not “illiterate” as claimed.
Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49
Quote:
“Whatever Arabic tradition may have assumed from a wrong interpretation of a word in the Koran, it seems certain that Muhammad learned to read and write. But except for a few vague and unreliable pointers in his life and work we have no way of knowing the extent of his learning.”
Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-53
Quote:
“The Meccans were in general familiar with reading and writing. A certain amount of writing would be necessary for commercial purposes.”
Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-53
Quote:
“In view of this familiarity with writing among the Meccans particularly, both for records and for religious scriptures, there is a presumption that Muhammad knew at least enough to keep commercial records.”
I believe that the above information certainly raises reasonable doubt to the claims that Mohammad was “illiterate”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Do you believe Mohammed wrote the Quran?
No, I don’t. Indeed I have reason to believe that it is culmination of works by various people over over the course of a few hundred years.
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:55 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
Evidence that Mohammad was probably not “illiterate” as claimed.
Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49

Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-53

Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-53


I believe that the above information certainly raises reasonable doubt to the claims that Mohammad was “illiterate”.



"It seems certain that he learned" (when?)
"The Mekkans were "familiar" with how to read and write"
"presumption that Mohammad knew enough to keep commercial records" ( Hmmmm. "Abdullah, 40 hides, 1 gold coin)

The only thing this is evidence of is that some people believe he was not illiterate.

The same could be said for my uncle.

"It seemed that he learned to read, since he passed the CDL exam. The people in Massachusetts at the time were familiar with how to read. We presume that because he was a truck driver, he must have known how to read in order to read the road signs and get from one place to another."

None of this would be evidence.

I don't believe there is any actual "evidence" one way or another, though cases can be made for both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
No, I don’t. Indeed I have reason to believe that it is culmination of works by various people over over the course of a few hundred years.
Care to share those reasons? And who you think the various people are?
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:36 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,183,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Care to share those reasons? And who you think the various people are?
I’ll be happy to, after you explain why you believe Mohammad’s perceived “illiteracy” as being of great importance.
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
14,095 posts, read 23,683,335 times
Reputation: 7984
Let's see. Muslim terrorist using mosque to stash weapons including suicide bombers vest. Beheading of Daniel Pearle and tourist. Nightclub bombings. Passenger plane bombings. Passenger plane hijackings. Cruise ship hijackings. Train bombings. Bus bombings. Celebration of 9/11 in the streets of muslim nations. And yet you still insist Islam is a religion of peace. Is it a religion of peace or a religion of pieces? Oh, forgot the tried and true method of blowing up a bomb and then waiting till the ambulance arrives to blow up the ambulance workers as well. Yes, religion of pieces.
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
I’ll be happy to, after you explain why you believe Mohammad’s perceived “illiteracy” as being of great importance.
This is tiresome.

When did I say it was of great importance?

I didn't, so go ahead and answer the question.

Frankly, don't bother. I am not going to continue the back-and-forth with you. It's getting ridiculous.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:11 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,183,433 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
This is tiresome.

When did I say it was of great importance?

I didn't, so go ahead and answer the question.

Frankly, don't bother. I am not going to continue the back-and-forth with you. It's getting ridiculous.
mommytotwo,

You entered it into the discussion therefore implying that it was important.
On page 2 post #12 you stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
"from he himself to boot"
And what does this mean? That the religion came from him? He was illiterate. Or is that also a "misconception"? Do you have some source that says that he was really a scholar and a writer?
Whether or not he was violent depends greatly on your source of information.
I then responded wondering why people might think this validates the Quran and why they take this claim at “face value” rater than checking into these claims. You are right; the discussion isn’t getting anywhere because you have continued to attempt to distort and derail the discussion by not explaining why Mohammad’s literacy is an important factor.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,301 times
Reputation: 4979
lol!

Don't ask me why I believe something when I never said I believed it in the first place. You quoted me, and nowhere in that quote did I say "I believe it is important".

Because I mentioned something, only means that it is relevant, not that I necessarily "believe" it is important, just that I "believe" it is relevant to the conversation.

I laugh when I read that I "have continued to attempt to distort and derail the discussion" of why Mohammad's literacy is an important factor.

For the love of God and everything Holy, when did I agree that the topic of our discussion was the "Importance of Mohammad's Literacy"? Perhaps you thought that, but if you look at our discussion you will find that what we were ACTUALLY discussing was the validity of the claim that he was illiterate, not why it is or is not important.

Before you accuse me of distorting and derailing a discussion, please let's mutually agree on what it is that we are discussing. I cannot derail a discussion if you are the only one who knows what the topic of the discussion is, or WHERE YOU APPEAR TO INTEND TO ULTIMATELY LEAD IT.

I also hate it when people ask questions they already know the answer to, so that they can wait to hear the other persons response in order to refute it and tear it to shreds.

For anyone besides Salt & Light (who clearly must know this already and has no purpose for asking me to state it, other than for other peoples' benefit), SOME people feel it is important because, from what I have read, (and I have not FUL-LY invesitgated this scenario, just read a bit), at the time of Mohammad it was believed that someone would accuse him of "creating" or "making up" the verses he was revealing. Therefore to them, it is important that he was illiterate and uneducated because this would "show" that he couldn't have done it himself.

This is why SOME people find it extremely important that he was illiterate.

(Does this prove it wasn't someone else, obviously not, which is why I was curious to know who Salt & Light thought might have done it, but he hasn't answered)

But that is it, Salt & Light, if you feel the "topic" of our discussion is why his literacy is an important factor, there you have it, that is one reason, if there are others, I am not aware of them as I have not delved deeply in this topic. If you really want to know, ask someone else. But you have obviously done some reading on the subject already, and as I stated above this is probably not news to you.

Just so you don't feel I derailed the discussion.

And go ahead and have the last word.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:24 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,546,730 times
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Quote:
I have actually seen a number of responses like this.

I think muslim killing muslim is mentioned it is to show people that those doing the killing are not devout Muslims, because if they were why would they be killing people of the same faith, not just who they perceive as the "enemy". They are murderers, not just killing in self defense or for justfied purposes, because not only are they killing those that "supposedly" are thier enemy, but also people who are most definitely not their "enemy".

I could probably explain this better, but do you see what I am saying?
I understand what you are saying, but you made a similar error in your explanation as the original error

Moonsun gave a clear enough answer, anyway.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:25 AM
 
820 posts, read 1,082,534 times
Reputation: 138
This is the real deal:
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnasr View Post
Islam simply means peace, i have travel to many parts and reading alot what people are saying about Islam. Sorry you all got it wrong. People committing suicide bombing is not Islam, "anybody that kill himself he will be punished in here after" so what those islam have to do with terrorism? Muslim killing his fellow muslim as a result of suicide bomb, is that Islam?NO. That is peoples choice, What war do Islam know? "HOLY WAR" that is it, islam indicate to marry four(4) wives (IF) you will be justly to all of them , feed them and their children,provide shelter to them and equality of love.Please Islam is not a religion of killing but a religion of peace, a good muslim is different from others....Most of the people involved in this killings are the others who call them selves Muslim....ALLAH AKHBAR....


Share your ideas with me in other for the world to know the real background of Islam, If you have questions please say them, its all knowledge.....
Check this out:
Michael Yon - Online Magazine

Click on " Bless the beasts and children".
Listen to Cpt "Baker". Listen to the Americans who went in behind Cpt Baker's company.

Warning: Graphic pic's of AQI war crimes against Sunni villagers.

Last edited by gbear48; 01-05-2009 at 07:32 AM.. Reason: Add warning.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:52 AM
 
Location: where i belong
414 posts, read 708,660 times
Reputation: 53
Arrow Dies Irae

Thank you for this post.
Let the "Wrath of God" become creative in advanced minds and souls.\!!


Last edited by lwowl; 01-05-2009 at 07:55 AM.. Reason: Effi Briest
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