why are some people so mad? (Clinton, Carter: purchases, income, cost of living)

[ArabiansRule]

WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MAD? Because they are a bunch of whiners. EVERYWHERE is the same, except for the climate. The only reason Montana has taken longer to grow than other states, is it's location. The homegrown Montanans are no different than folks born and raised in other semi-rural or suburban areas across the country. These "local yokals" are abundant in all 50 states. Montana is just not conveniently located for shipping or travel. That is why it is slower to grow. You might say it's harsh winters, but they are nothing compared to Minnesota, Wisconson, and other highly populated states with bitterly cold and icy winters. It is it's location, plain and simple. Everybody, everywhere, has seen areas they played in as kids, turn into shopping malls and parking lots. Boo-hoo.
People are just ridiculous and narrow minded when they really believe Montana is so unique. Yes, it has beautiful scenery. Much of which really is unique. But living here, well, that's not so unique. The fact that it is off the "main drag" of the US, that can be a problem. Only Alaska and Hawaii are more off of the beaten path.
Unfortunately, EVERYWHERE is growing. The population is growing. If you really want to help to prevent growth: 1) spay/neuter your friends and relatives, 2) Help to keep immigration down, and especially help to ELIMINATE illegal immigrants, 3) Stop the flood of the world's rejects from spilling into our country, 4) DON'T blame the drug problem on kids from California. Plenty of Montana born white folks are dealing and using meth and other drugs, which is why so many out of state suppliers even have a market here. Those are just a few suggestions to avoid being part of the problem.

It would be wonderful if everywhere could stay just as it was years ago. But it isn't going to happen, not in most places, so just deal with it. Help to shape the communities. Don't be like those useless idiots who stand in front of the courthouse with signs saying "end the war in Iraq" or something similar. That is not helping anything. EVERYONE would like the war to end. But do these morons really think that just by holding up these stupid signs, they are helping the problem? Why don't they take their lazy butts over there and eradicate the terrorists, so that when our troops come home, we don't just end up with all the terrorists here in our country.
Back to the issue of too many people in Montana. Well, we have a LONG way to go to be even close to any other state. Where I am from, no I won't say!, the county I lived in had more people than this entire state. There are still plenty of semi-rural areas. LOTS of places to keep, as well as ride, horses.
So CHILL out, take a deep breath, and pull your head out. IT WILL BE FINE, but be part of the solution, rather than just sitting on the sidelines holding a stupid sign, complaining.
Hope you all enjoyed my brutal honesty, it is one of my most endearing qualities.

[GLS]

Here is some quantitative data I found on another thread. It corroborates what most Montanans have been yelling about. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know Montana taxes were worse than New York, California, etc.

Originally Posted by RichCapeCod

.... Some years ago I saw a study done by one of the larger financial investment (Bloomberg??) sites. It broke down all the states (and Wash DC) into four theoretical family income groups. Again, it was some time ago, but I recall they had basically a (all higher income) working family, a retired family and a family that received its income mostly from investments. The differences in what the various states cost these fictitious families was quite remarkable. Indeed, if a one lived just over the boarder of one state from a contiguous one they saved over $40,000 dollars a year in taxes!

OK, found the article (I saved it to my computer!). It's from April, 2000 and it is from Bloomberg Personal Finance. Here is how they listed their "Top" and "Bottom" ten states for being tax friendly:


TOP 10 Overall
1 Wyoming
2 Nevada
3 Washington
4 Tennessee
5 Alaska
6 Florida
7 Louisiana
8 South Dakota
9 Texas
10 Alabama


BOTTOM 10 Overall
42 D.C.
43 Nebraska
44 Oregon
45 Maine
46 Vermont
47 Wisconsin
48 Minnesota
49 New York
50 Montana
51 Rhode Island

Here's one quote from the article;

"Location, location, location. The first rule of retailing applies to your taxes too: Which side of the state line you happen to sleep on can make a jaw-dropping difference in the tax bill you pay. The contrast is starkest along the border between Wyoming (for the third year in a row, the wealth-friendliest state in our survey) and Montana (50th out of 51 jurisdictions)."

Hope this was helpful.

Rich

[JoeJoeMan]

arabiansrule wrote:

Unfortunately, EVERYWHERE is growing.

Ah........no it's not, there are plenty of places in the is country, small towns and rural places, even some neighborhods in large cities that have changed little if at all, every heard of eastern MT ?

[ArabiansRule]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

arabiansrule wrote:


Ah........no it's not, there are plenty of places in the is country, small towns and rural places, even some neighborhods in large cities that have changed little if at all, every heard of eastern MT ?

I mean that anywhere that someone can earn a living, either through employment or owning a business. Not out in the tweeter bushes, or the vast nothingness of eastern Montana. If people did not need to earn incomes, then people would most likely spread out, and we wouldn't mostly live so close to one another.....obviously, most desolate places will remain such for a very long time, enjoy your life there.

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

arabiansrule:

Unfortunately, EVERYWHERE is growing.

JoeJoeMan:

Ah........no it's not, there are plenty of places in the is country, small towns and rural places, even some neighborhods in large cities that have changed little if at all, every heard of eastern MT ?

It is hard to disagree with ArabiansRule. The overall aspect of the population on this ball we live on is it is growing. Therefore growth is eminent everywhere over time. Granted, growth in all areas fluctuates, some positive and negative at times, some slower and faster than others, but long term, it will always be positive.

If I were someone living in MT and mad about growth in the State, I'd be thankful that MT does not possess the economic drivers to support faster growth than it currently does as in many other areas of the US. If you want to keep the growth in MT minimal as it currently is now relative to other areas, form a powerful ku type organization and run out of town any new business to the area which will provide economic growth and services to the people. Then no more people will want to go there unless they ultimately want to live in a "nothing to offer me" environment......which that group is growing as well.......

Eliminate economic growth and you eliminate population growth for the most part. If there isn't anything to go there for “financially”, for the most part people won't go! Simple as that. Money talks......pretty much the reason for the no growth situation you mention in many small towns. Yes some areas are in negative or no growth situations now and have been for a while, but it is just a changing of the guard situation so to speak. Population will rise again in those areas once the groups desiring those types of conditions find them.......

Unfortunately economic growth is inevitable too, again slower in some areas than others but as population increases, so will economics, especially in the US. Population growth, no one will ever stop it or even slow it down much. It is the ultimate goal of our Government to increase it. Our country has the perfect foundation. We can support growth better than any other country economically. The greater the population, the greater the economics. This is the lemon we are handed and all one can do is "try to" make lemonade out of it! Find a way to make it work for you and keep plugging away at life........everyone just needs to get used to it and make the best of it!

Only real solution…….move to another planet! Same thing will happen there too eventually

[ElkHunter]

Stephan_K,

I don't think that's it so much as an attitude. Please let me explain.

Montana is a draw. People come here for a visit, the last unknown. They meet people that are friendly, they stay in a nice motel for a reasonable price, they visit the glaciers, the parks, the trails, the sites. They really enjoy themselves. They love it. The charm, the friendly atmosphere. They decide that it's what they really want in life to settle into and live out the "quiet life".

So they move here. About a month later they say, "Well, in xxx we did this." And they start trying to shape Montana into something they felt comfortable with where they were.

That's not what Montana is about. It's Montana. If you like it, fit in. Don't try to change it to where you come from. It's not, where you come from. If it is, then stay there. You won't have to move.

Montana was originally started by a few English Lords that thought that 300,000 acres was "just enough" to make a decent ranch. They fought long and hard against settlers that come in and said, You can't fence us out, we deserve to settle here. The English Lords said, "ok, we'll except that". Then the settlers said, we have to have roads, we have to have towns, we have to have.............

The deal is. People like the English Lords and what they stood for and what they created. But they want to take wilderness and build houses on it. Let's sub-divide and sell ranchette's. We need more schools, more progressive, more diversified.

A few years from now, the new comers are going to say, "What the hell is happening to Montana? We are too diversified, there's too many people, too many box stores, too many............

The people of Montana are just trying to keep the sanctuary that they love and what attracks you to visit. Not buy and sub-divide.

[jimj]

Good example Elk, if you will let me refine it even more. I live in a 20 home subdivision out in a rural area surrounded by trees. We (the subdivision) own our road which is about a mile long. During the winter it ices up and gets slick. Now understand these are pretty much middle upper end homes and most here are not born and raised Montanans. So, this winter the board decided to buy a sander so we didn't slide all over the road doing like where most of us came from but found that it would cost us over $1600 just for the machine not to mention the sand and upkeep. Well we talked again and while we were used to sanded roads and such and really hated to slide everywhere and were worried that if someone came in here and slid off the road we'd be sued we decided NOT to purchase the sander.
The reason was this, it was a lot of money and while the road does get slick this is Montana after all and that happens here so we just need to deal with it.... Most side roads are in exactly the same condition and if you can't deal then you need to change something, we don't.
So there's a micro situation that kind of says what most locals here think.... If a person who moves here can't deal with something then maybe they need to change to fit here not the other way around....

[Stephan_K]

ElkHunter

I understand exactly what you are saying. It seems out of control, more so to those who have experienced the past, present and are seeing the future of MT based on the events leading up to the present. And the "attitude" you speak of is a relative one too and the reason why things are going were they are I guess. While I am on the MTans side of the fence on this one, I also promote advancement and technology. I'm sure many MT natives do to. What is real relative is how much! I love everything MT is supposed to stand for but at the same time would welcome the simple subtle changes that help keep it that way and at the same time improve its meaning and perception.

I’d say also that “small” subdivisions and all that come with them promote the bringing in of those who wish to change things the most. MTans need to get proper people in the LOCAL Government and pass legislation to put limits in place for these types of growth and help preserve things to a point and slow things down by not promoting the growth so easily. Basically offer the MT life at a HIGH price and limit how much one can instigate change within it via local Government.

If people know up front what they can and can't do in certain Counties of MT, they will think twice about relocating there prior to doing so with the attitude of changing things. I am not familiar with hoe local County Gov works in MT but I got ideas that WILL help preserve MT and limit change. It all starts with the PEOPLE in any County concerned about change, getting the right people in the County Gov.

1) Enact stiff county sales taxes that will 100% fund the government that it will takes to preserve the county! This would be temporary.
2) Preserve it by putting limits on land divisions.
3) Restructuring Property Tax accordingly. The smaller the division the higher the tax. If taxes on small < 1 acre development lots are higher than 40+ acre lots with the same improvements on them, well that will eliminate a whole bunch of developments, or at least sloowwww it WAYYY down.

Those three for starters.......But there are many more things that can be done but in a nutshell it all starts with the residents in the counties of MT. If people want to preserve it bad enough they will have to pony up! Problem is that I don’t think everyone as a whole is smart enough to do something about it or willing to pony up to do it. New comers will continue to come in and it will end up just like you say........

” A few years from now, the new comers are going to say, "What the hell is happening to Montana? We are too diversified, there's too many people, too many box stores, too many”

I guess trying to keep the attitude we are talking about out of the equation is the biggest problem..........

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by jimj

Good example Elk, if you will let me refine it even more. I live in a 20 home subdivision out in a rural area surrounded by trees. We (the subdivision) own our road which is about a mile long. During the winter it ices up and gets slick. Now understand these are pretty much middle upper end homes and most here are not born and raised Montanans. So, this winter the board decided to buy a sander so we didn't slide all over the road doing like where most of us came from but found that it would cost us over $1600 just for the machine not to mention the sand and upkeep. Well we talked again and while we were used to sanded roads and such and really hated to slide everywhere and were worried that if someone came in here and slid off the road we'd be sued we decided NOT to purchase the sander.
The reason was this, it was a lot of money and while the road does get slick this is Montana after all and that happens here so we just need to deal with it.... Most side roads are in exactly the same condition and if you can't deal then you need to change something, we don't.
So there's a micro situation that kind of says what most locals here think.... If a person who moves here can't deal with something then maybe they need to change to fit here not the other way around....

Great point and as you stated and as i agree.......Local Government made the decision! I think it all starts there. After all, Local Gov is made up of local people.

[JoeJoeMan]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan
arabiansrule wrote:


Ah........no it's not, there are plenty of places in the is country, small towns and rural places, even some neighborhods in large cities that have changed little if at all, every heard of eastern MT ?

I mean that anywhere that someone can earn a living, either through employment or owning a business. Not out in the tweeter bushes, or the vast nothingness of eastern Montana. If people did not need to earn incomes, then people would most likely spread out, and we wouldn't mostly live so close to one another.....obviously, most desolate places will remain such for a very long time, enjoy your life there.

Well I guess you'll have to say what you mean, rule number #1, else no one will know what you mean.
But to respectfully take issue with you.......there are lots of places in the "tweeter bushes" that have good economies an no growth. A frined of mine in college would always tell me about farm life where she came from and how her family and relatives all did fairly well for themselves, but the down was just to laid back for her, thus she was in college. But my point being, the small town had a good economy but was out in the "tweeter bushes.
This whole notion of "we have to have growth" and "growth is good" and you can't stop it......I simply don't buy into it, and I'd like someone to tell where this rule has been written in stone somewhere. Like it's a fact of life.

Stehpn_K wrote:

It is hard to disagree with ArabiansRule. The overall aspect of the population on this ball we live on is it is growing. Therefore growth is eminent everywhere over time. Granted, growth in all areas fluctuates, some positive and negative at times, some slower and faster than others, but long term, it will always be positive.

Actually I don't find it very hard at all..........ah how big was Butte years ago and how big is it now ? Population in the USA has stablized, minus the illegals. Even China has curtailed it's population growth, Many countries in Europe simply don't have the American style urban sprawl disease growing in their countries that we have here and they kinda' think we're a bunch of idiots for doing it here.
With all due respect I think you have to increase the boundries of your logic and deductive reasoning skill in this area. It seems that you have just blindly bought into alot of the 'good growth' notion being tossed about.
And to take issue with your other point that people move where there is work...........why people are moving to montana all the time and the last thing on alot of their minds is finding a job.....we're growing and we don't even have many jobs, shy of the jobs building houses for all the people moving here........It's growth simple for the sake of growth, it is what I call a false economy, and one that our government is pushing more and more on us becasue...............we don't make anything anymore, they let them all go to a COMMUNIST country (for the life of me I'll never figure that one out) if it wasn't for growth we wouldn't have much of an economy at all, and that is said, because we have to eat up all of our beautiful surrounds just to make a buck in this phoney economy that is having more and more trouble sustaining itself by the day, as evident by the fact that we've now become a debtor nation as well as individuals in hock up to their eyeballs, borrow, spend and build, and Uncle Sam will print more money as needed.
No there doesn't have to be an endless cycle of growth, it just happens to be what we are doing now for sake of the almight dollar to satisfy our american self indulgent nature....lots of things quite growing, people, animals, planets, what goes up must come down. Nothing grows for ever except time. Everthing stops physicaly growing at some point, then we get smarter and grow from within......it's called maturity or maturing...take your pick