Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Agreed Elvira (geez I say that alot). I would also like to add to the comment about people who move into areas only to flip and make a quick profit. I don't think that these people should be demonized, and they are certianly not the cause of the many problems of this city. They are looking to make a buck and exploited an avenue that was giving good return...that's the American way. Whether it be the stock market, the housing market, selling a product, working for a living, or whatever, we are all here to make money, and flipping houses just happened to be the latest way.
I do not believe there is anything inherently wrong with this...it is what it is. Anyone that believes it is wrong to be one of the flippers, does not understand what it means to be an American, the culture here, or a NYer for taht matter.
My idea for improving the quality of life in this city is quite simple: don't abandon these communities that Hustla, the press, and the "elite" dismiss as "wastelands."
The press and the "elite" may have other agenda's. I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, but I would try not to be too sensitive to certain post.
People post from their perspective's based on their experiences and hard cold facts. Some people post things like comming to NY with no money and they're young and they are single parents with no relatives here. Or they want to come here and live in a rough neighborhood and try to get employment in a field that's difficult with no connections and no experience. Some people have no experience with NY, or city life in general. So some posters are just giving them the facts about areas. Sometimes when you are a NYer and living with things from day to day all your life, you are accustomed to them and you know how to handle it. Again look back at history in NYC. I know there are so many stories out there of people comming here with a nickle in their pockets and becoming successful. But you have to examine who and what they were before they came here with that nickel that allowed them to be successful.
Also some people have children and without strong family support and the means to meet basic needs it is just so hard to raise children in certain areas and for the child to grow up and be successful or even for the family as a whole to survive, so if a family can live in decent areas, that is what they should do for the sake of the children. For some that can't afford to live in a decent area in the city it may mean moving out. This decision maybe what is best for them in their circumstances.
Leaving out the word "infested" that was my point. Starting in the 1940's most people left the tenements of Harlem to buy homes in the Bronx. Most of the time at first this was the South Bronx because white families moved to the sections in the North Bronx leaving the Southern Bronx to the minorities. Even moving to a then safe clean tenement in the South Bronx was better than Harlem back in the 50's and 60's. The Bronx was a step up from Harlem.
As white families started to leave sections of the northern Bronx for the suburbs minorities started moving into those areas At first it was the home owners from the southern Bronx moving and renting out the houses they left behind. With the homeowners gone areas started going down. Homeowners demand certain services and tend to take care of their property better than renters. Not all but most. This affected the entire area even the people that lived in tenements.
Then the fires and relocations started in the Bronx. Some areas have been built back up and are continuing to build. Some northernern areas went down and are building back up.
The fight now IMO is that when an area is on the rise, some people want to move in to make a big profit this eventually forces working people and artist and others that have worked to improve an area out. The Bronx is the last frontier in this city. Where will everyone go if this occurs at anytime in the near future? There is no other boro to run to. Most people on this furum have already run to the Bronx from Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. I don't know much about Staten Island someone can elaborate on that one.
I really can't imagine a rich person becoming a cop or fireman and protecting and serving this city. I can't imagine a rich person working for transit or cleaning the streets or delivering my mail. If everyone is pushed out further it won't make sense for working people to spend their hard earned money to come into the city to perform these services.
Of course it doesn't have to become this way.
That is where the new low income housing programs come into play. All these abandoned buildings in the South Bronx have or are becoming low income housing of some kind. All the new construction low income housing. The only place in NYC with a steady flow of low income housing. Many low income single mothers supporting children are relocating from Harlem, Bed-stuy, Bushwick, Harlem, Washington Heights to find an affordable place to live in the Bronx. Many are doubling and tripling up and that is why schools especially in the South Bronx are overpopulated.
So if you are at the bottom, there is a place for you. The South Bronx. The middle class have no where to go in this city. There was proposed middle income housing in Queens but I don't know how that is going. Too little too late. And of course, if you are rich, you have Manhattan South.
Unfortunately if you are at the bottom, the area formerly known as the "South Bronx" (Mott Haven, Melrose, Hunt's Point etc) are NOT the places for you anymore. The new 2/3 family homes being built at a price of $600,000+, the new affordable housing being built have income minimums, the older walk-up buildings are being purchased by pension funds and major investors whom are renovating the buildings and repositioning them with subsequently significantly higher rents to magnify their return on investment (ROI), and fewer landlords are taking government programs (section 8, etc) as they are finding free market tenants more easily.
Unless you believe those at the bottom can afford $1,250 a month in rent for a 2 bedroom apt, then Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point are no longer suitable for the poor. Furthermore, with more Landlords opting out of government programs (including Mithcell Lama), the Bronx in general is not the choice for the poor, but the the working class.
Das.... I agree that the Bronx really is the last frontier for the working and middle class, whether it be by choice, or due to simple economics. The very poor (oftentiems on government programs) are now being moved out of private homes and apartment buildings to make room for free market tenants who can pay market rates, whether they be "whites" or people of color....they are definitely pushing up rents. The poor are either doubling up with parents, grandparents etc, or hold up in the larger housing projects...or moving out of the city completely.
It is unfortunate but just a matter of time before the working/middle class play a larger role in the Bronx, as the other boroughs are far too expensive. Should they choose to remain in the city, there are not many options besides places like Mott Haven, Melrose, Highbridge, Hunts POint, etc...
Unfortunately if you are at the bottom, the area formerly known as the "South Bronx" (Mott Haven, Melrose, Hunt's Point etc) are NOT the places for you anymore. The new 2/3 family homes being built at a price of $600,000+, the new affordable housing being built have income minimums, the older walk-up buildings are being purchased by pension funds and major investors whom are renovating the buildings and repositioning them with subsequently significantly higher rents to magnify their return on investment (ROI), and fewer landlords are taking government programs (section 8, etc) as they are finding free market tenants more easily.
Unless you believe those at the bottom can afford $1,250 a month in rent for a 2 bedroom apt, then Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point are no longer suitable for the poor. Furthermore, with more Landlords opting out of government programs (including Mithcell Lama), the Bronx in general is not the choice for the poor, but the the working class.
A lot of the townhouses in the South Bronx are subsidized. Most are bought and then completely rented out. They are also all multifamily so 1-2 units are rented out per house either way.
Only a small percentage of South Bronxites live in townhouses BTW. Most people in the South Bronx live tenements, then housing projects.
Older walkups are being renovated by low income housing programs. Take a look at the signs out front...
New construction has an income ceiling. A family of 3 (Working mother, 2 kids) living in a two bedroom apartment in the South Bronx making $30,000 are considered low income. Some new buildings are part of the NYCHA program. The new construction on Melrose Ave for example.
As for landlords opting out of section 8, a very slow process. Not all will either, you just can't sell some places for the rents they charge today. City is overpriced and only an idiot would buy into a $2500 a month rent for a 1 bedroom across the street from a homeless shelter, down the block from a needle exchange, under the shadow of the projects...
The future of NYC is 2-3 low income families living together in one apartment. That or you hit the homeless shelters and become part of a growing population of people with no roof over their head.
There is a low income housing shortage in the Bronx, however it is not as extreme as what you find in the other boroughs. Housing is going up, just not fast enough to fill demand as the poor from other parts of the city come to the Bronx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
Das.... I agree that the Bronx really is the last frontier for the working and middle class, whether it be by choice, or due to simple economics. The very poor (oftentiems on government programs) are now being moved out of private homes and apartment buildings to make room for free market tenants who can pay market rates, whether they be "whites" or people of color....they are definitely pushing up rents. The poor are either doubling up with parents, grandparents etc, or hold up in the larger housing projects...or moving out of the city completely.
It is unfortunate but just a matter of time before the working/middle class play a larger role in the Bronx, as the other boroughs are far too expensive. Should they choose to remain in the city, there are not many options besides places like Mott Haven, Melrose, Highbridge, Hunts POint, etc...
People exaggerate gentrification. Harlem is not gentrified. It is still going through the early stages. Central Harlem right now is still mostly Black and poor. East Harlem is still overwhelmingly Latino and poor. Bed-stuy is at an earlier stage, same with Bushwick. Many areas of Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island have not been touched.
With the growing population NYC will continue to have housing shortages. Especially for the poor.
The Bronx is not the last option.
As a matter fact, things will be getting intersting.
-Middle class is still shrinking.
-Low income population is growing.
-Not enough housing for low income people, homeless population rising.
-Latino population between 06-07 shrunk I belive for the first time in many years according to census estimates. I belive this made the city population slightly shrink. The second time the city population has dropped in 5 years (Last time was 04 to 05 I belive).
-Population fueled by immigrants. Immigrants who can't afford to live here.
With these real things happening, it makes you wonder if NYC will continue to grow. Has it hit a ceiling? Or will it soon. One thing is for sure, we can cannot sustain these living cost.
And BTW, the South Bronx is DEFINATELY not the last option. The vast majorty of people would rather move out of NYC then live in the South Bronx. I don't blame them. Still a lot of decent areas in the far east and far northwest Bronx to consider as well.
You almost sound happy and really hope Manhattanites do take over the Bronx. Not that it would happen but it looks like you would be happy if the South Bronx was like the LES, White college kids running around. Latino and Black faces no where to be seen outside the PJ's. Meanwhile you get evicted so they can tear down your old building to build a huge luxury condo development. The Bronx is the people, not the buildings and the crap neighborhoods. I rather see the low income people have a roof over their heads then live on the street or get displaced from neighborhood to neighborhood.
Last edited by Hustla718; 09-20-2007 at 03:39 PM..
The Bronx is the people, not the buildings and the crap neighborhoods. I rather see the low income people have a roof over their heads then live on the street or get displaced from neighborhood to neighborhood.
I agree with part of your posting Hustla. The opting out of LL from government programs is happening slowly, but it is happening, and is shrinking the pool of available apts for these poor families. I also agree that the older walkups and new buildings are affordable housing for the most part, however they have income MINIMUMS, which means they are not just moving people from the projects to new, nicer projects.
Read and learn about what the requirements are for all the new affordable housing in the Bronx, as the building in my neighborhood of Mott Haven has the same requirements as all the other new affordable housing units, and clearly by the income restrictions, these are targeted at working/middles class, not the poor:
I also agree that gentrification is exaggerated, and in fact in many cases it is wongly applied, as in the Bronx. It is not gentrification that is happening, it is really a resurgence/revitalization that is coming from the inside (though as of late it has shifted from the outside). Nonetheless, the new development is geared more towards lower/middle income families, rather than yuppies, or any other demographic. I am pleased to see that the Bronx is making inroads in providing safe, secure housing for the working and middle classes, however the poor will continue to either be pushed out, remain in the housing projects, double-up, or move out altogether, which alot have been doing recently...off to Pennsylvania, Florida, and Atlanta for better lives..and I salute them.
I also agree that the Bronx is the people, as is every other community of any color. I would also rather see low income people have a roof over their head than be on the streets.....no rational person would disagree, and it is not good for the overall health of the city either, which is why there are soooo many welfare programs to get people off the streets and in some sort of stable housing. Unfortunately people are finding all those vouchers are becoming useless pieces of paper, as more LLs are refusing to accept them for free-market alternatives so they move to other areas outside of the city.
And for the last time, I am not "happy about Manhattanites moving into the Bronx, or the Bronx becoming the LES." Your accusations are as baseless as your doom and gloom of the Bronx, I merely provide my assessment as a long-time Bronx resident, the changes I have seen, and the progress that has been made. I am happy to see new faces in my community, becuase the 30 years of segregation have been detrimental to the health and growth of the community. There is room enough for everyone to come to the Bronx, and the affordable areas of Mott Haven/Melrose/Hunts Point, whether it be the current working poor, the yuppies, professors, immigrants, city workers, or white collar professionals. I choose not to exclude, but to include...and that's what this city is about.
If you look in the NY Daily News or NY Post, there are often block ads/announcements of new buildings for lower income folks, with income guidelines and info on how to apply. I threw away the papers (lol) but I think some of the new construction has income max's that would disqualify many up and comers.
I know a lot of people disparage/dismiss section 8 housing, but its intended purpose was (supposedly) to give poorer people an alternative to the segregation of the housing projects, rather than have the whole building be section 8. The landlords benefit because at this time some of the Bronx buildings are just not going to attract anyone over a certain income level, and they are guaranteed 2/3 of the rent from the gov't every month. One of the other requirments (at least ideally) is that both the tenant and landlord keep the apt in safe, decent, clean condition (hence yearly inspections) and that the landlord keep the building up to code and remove violations promptly.
Of course, it doesn't always work out this way, and Section 8 is very hard to get into, though maybe easier now. The federal govt can and has cut funding to section 8, but some landlords rely on it. Like all systems, there can be abuses on both sides (tenant and landlord).
Welfare as we know it is gone--it's now workfare and people are expected to have some sort of job unless they are disabled. Sometimes it is maintaining parks, for example, which benefits everyone.
Fortunately, there are advocates in the Bronx who are working with some banks and landlords to, for example, take over abandoned or poorly run buildings and invest in them without throwing out all the poor. To my mind, it is crucial that the Bronx continue to have some housing for low-income people. Some people on section 8 work but their incomes are still too low to afford full rent, plus cost of living. That is one of the reasons I have such high hopes for the Bronx--because it is less likely that it will be solely transformed into a ghetto for the moneyed classes, with improvements being made that will hopefully make it more livable for current residents as well as newcomers.
The time has come to realize that the poor are not inherently criminals, drug dealers, etc. but often hard working, decent people. There have always been poor in this city struggling to move up. If improvements can make life better for everyone, hopefully it will be easier for the poor to have some hope to better themselves economically and enjoy a better quality of life as well without being priced out. It is grossly unfair that people who lived here through the "bad times" are later displaced, often ruthlessly. But of course, life is not fair--and NYC is a prime example of this (lol).
section 8, mitchell lama are a scam. If you want to get on you need to know people and be able to cut a check.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
