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Anyone nowadays who doesn't get educated beyond high school ( either college or trade school) is an idiot ( IMHO)
Care to offer some rationalization of that honest opinion?
I tend to agree with you. If you don't educate yourself than you're prone to being a victim of whatever the big evil machine of capitalization throws at you. Having an education gives you a modicum of control, at least the idea that you might control some elements of your own destiny.
However, in ND, that destiny is already so limited by geography and simple lack of available paths, I'm not sure there is a significant difference in having that control or not. Therefore it can be argued that power, that control, is not worth the investment of time and capital to obtain, at least not if you plan to stay in ND.
Well... some of us see our lives as more than a ledger sheet.
I'm certainly not moving to ND to get rich. I really don't care how much I make, as long as it's sufficient for my NEEDS. Main reason I'm planning a move there is the climate suits me and to get away from overpopulation... and away from those places you mention where "education is valued." That's a misnomer. What's valued is your educated money. You make ten times more and pay ten times more. And of course the government loves you because they can fleece you with taxes.
And more power to you. You can absolutely live your life any way you'd like to. I don't fault anyone for that as long as they aren't a drag on me or my resources. If you're happy with a particular life and have the skill set required to obtain a salary sufficient to support that lifestyle, go for it!
As for the rest of what you said... it got a bit silly. Should we do the math?
Lets make a few assumptions. I make 10 times more money... but I live in a house 10 times more expensive (lets use 3 times instead as that's probably closer). Our college loans cost the same regardless of geography. Gas, food, heating costs, etc are all about the same regardless of where you live in the US. Cars cost the same no matter where you buy them in the US. Car insurance is definitely more expensive in certain areas so we'll figure I pay about $100 more a month. Clothes, eatting out, everything else, about the same anywhere in the country right? If I'm missing some big ones, feel free to point them out.
So at the end of the month, you have $2,000 left over... I have $10,200 left over... that goes to a vacation fund... savings for children's college... retirement... etc. If I'm making 3 times as much and only have a house that costs 3 times as much... that also means I have 3 times as much for entertainment, 3 times as much for savings, 3 times as much for my kid's college, and 3 times as much for my own retirement. Additionally, when both our homes go up 10% in value, my 10% is 3 times your 10% meaning I have 3 times the equity.
I won't even comment on the Government tax "fleecing". People in ND ought to love the Government tax structure as the state gets something like 60% more from the Government than they pay to it.
I dunno... maybe I'm simply a cynic... but remembering high school... I don't remember knowing anyone "passionate" about becoming something. Most people in HS don't even know who they are yet much less what they think they might want to do when they're all grown up. Frankly, I'd love to see the US institute some sort of policy that required 2 years of public service from all graduating high school seniors and then in return offered free tuition to public universities following that. Give the kids a chance to mature, to figure out who they are and what they want to do, and then go to college and not need $100k+ in loans to get through it.
same hear...you provide good sense too and you seem happy with how things turned out and I am very glad.
Weather is one of those things you get passionate about early on or you usually dont ever get into it as a career. Most of my co-workers through the years had something which brought them to weather early on...not all...but many. Some it was a tornado that they saw or a hurricane they experienced. Me I got into it because as a young kid I loved to play in the snow. Down where I grew up we got 10-15 inches of snow a year so any snow chances you grab at. We also got out of school for any minor amount of snow because we didnt have the means to remove snow such as plows in our county. We were a county school district too which meant although the larger town I lived in the streets were clear...they didnt want to put kids on buses to travel some of the narrower rural roads in the county. Thus a 3 inch snowfall usually mean 4-5 days off of school. I would spend all day outside as our snow melted usually within a week.
Anyway I started probably around 8-9 watching AM Weather which was a PBS show in the late 70s and very early 80s before The Weather Channel and I would listen to the latest NWS forecast from the nearby weather office (Evansville Ind) when a storm was forecast. I would also watch all the local TV mets, which where I grew up was in-between several larger cities, there were quite a few to choose from. My parents got me a weather kit in junior high to do my own cloud and precip and rain reports. I was hard core into weather and in particular snow. I studied maps in HS and more about weather and patterns. My dream in life was to get out of Kentucky because I hated it there (too warm) and move up north to Saskatchewan or Alberta someday as they experience a long and cold winter and I like flat land. In the 90s....Met Services of Canada cut back so much making the dream of moving north of the border and working there not really possible.
You mention financial....the pay I make here is the same I would make in Indy...St Louis...Nashville. So I didnt have to cut back there.
Fortunately I was able to make my dream come true....while not in Canada I am about 70 miles away so close enough.
I realize I am few of the lucky ones in the entire career process....but I do hope my young kids can get the passion I did growing up.
And more power to you. You can absolutely live your life any way you'd like to. I don't fault anyone for that as long as they aren't a drag on me or my resources. If you're happy with a particular life and have the skill set required to obtain a salary sufficient to support that lifestyle, go for it!
As for the rest of what you said... it got a bit silly. Should we do the math?
Lets make a few assumptions. I make 10 times more money... but I live in a house 10 times more expensive (lets use 3 times instead as that's probably closer). Our college loans cost the same regardless of geography. Gas, food, heating costs, etc are all about the same regardless of where you live in the US. Cars cost the same no matter where you buy them in the US. Car insurance is definitely more expensive in certain areas so we'll figure I pay about $100 more a month. Clothes, eatting out, everything else, about the same anywhere in the country right? If I'm missing some big ones, feel free to point them out.
So at the end of the month, you have $2,000 left over... I have $10,200 left over... that goes to a vacation fund... savings for children's college... retirement... etc. If I'm making 3 times as much and only have a house that costs 3 times as much... that also means I have 3 times as much for entertainment, 3 times as much for savings, 3 times as much for my kid's college, and 3 times as much for my own retirement. Additionally, when both our homes go up 10% in value, my 10% is 3 times your 10% meaning I have 3 times the equity.
I won't even comment on the Government tax "fleecing". People in ND ought to love the Government tax structure as the state gets something like 60% more from the Government than they pay to it.
5000 a month? That's unrealistic for most people. $2500 a month is more in line with the economy. And many of the expenses you include are the sorts of things I was talking about with the lifestyle comment in my last post.
* First let's talk car insurance. You place your insurance at $200 a month. That's more than I pay in six months. Let's overestimate it at $35 a month on the upper end.
* No car loan. If you want to talk about silly, buying a car on credit is silly. My older car is just as dependable as your new car and it gets me from point A to point B just the same. Car payment: 0. Maybe $30 a month on maintenance, preventative (oil change, tune up, etc).
* $1500 in "other" category? I really don't know what I would spend that much money on in a month. Clothing maybe $200 in a year--we'll round it to $20 a month. Heating here in Utah, if I keep the thermostat down, is around $25 - 30 a month (averaged over the year). Of course, it's going to be more in ND. Let's say $60 a month (that should be enough to heat approximately 350 to 400 sq ft of super-insulated home. Electricity: minimal. $30 on a bad month. Food: cook your own, buy at the grocery store in bulk and eat "in" most of the time--let's just say $200 a month to provide for some junk food splurges on occasion. So let's adjust that "other" category to maybe $600 per month for whatever else and to allow for some rainy day savings and toward sustenance if I'm unable to work up until I die.
* College loans will be paid before I move.
As for the house, I'm not building it as an investment. I'm building it to live in. I really don't care what it's worth as I plan to spend the rest of my days in it. But let's run the numbers based on some homes I've seen in small town ND. In Utah, on the very lowest end, you're going to be paying around 200K, more likely 250k + . Let's go with $200,000. 30 year loan at 5% interest, ignoring all the BS fees will end up as about $1,073.64 per month (plus whatever fees). Now let's calculate that same loan on $15,000 in small-town ND. Of course, they won't go 30 years on that. Let's say 15 years. Payment: $118.62 (plus whatever fees).
So the math we're doing here indicates that my total expense in a month is less than just your monthly house payment. That's what I was talking about when I said self-inflicted debt.
I'm not trying to be combative; I'm just pointing out what lifestyle does to finances. I'm hypersensitive about this because I lived through a horrible, self-imposed financial situation in the past. Yes, it was due to my financial gluttony and stupidity. But it is not going to happen again. We learn from our failures. I'll live in a pasteboard box before I do that again. And that is the way most people still live. My philosophy has completely changed. I never again want to be in a situation that I need a high income to sustain my over consumptive lifestyle. I've gone the opposite direction and it works great. I don't miss any of the crap that everyone seems to "need." It's not about maximizing wages (and having spending follow suit). It's about minimizing expenses, which has the advantage of being sustainable even on lousy wages. You can make millions a month or hundreds a month and still sustain minimized expenses. But it can't work the other way around. I want to be able to sustain my lifestyle on lousy wages if I have to. It then gets to the point that a high paying job really doesn't matter that much, except for ego. Of course, that's just me; that's where I'm coming from. We live in a society that believes the only way to "make it" is to maximize earnings in order to maximize spending. It's the Titanic... and I've jumped ship.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled "Where are the jobs" thread. I still suggest that with proper lifestyle choices, wages in ND are sufficient, even if low, for one's needs. If that were not the case, 650,000 people would have starved to death long ago.
Last edited by ChrisC; 09-22-2010 at 01:02 PM..
Reason: speeling and grammer misteaks
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled "Where are the jobs" thread. I still suggest that with proper lifestyle choices, wages in ND are sufficient, even if low, for one's needs. If that were not the case, 650,000 people would have starved to death long ago.
I think this is where we differ and is one of the big reasons I left ND upon graduation from HS... in ND... you can "exist"... means are available for you to sustain life. What I would argue is that means do not exist to truly live... to experience all that life has to offer. Both the opportunities for life experiences and the finances to fund said experiences are missing in ND.
To some, existence is enough. They want to have kids... watch them grow... grow old together with someone they love... and die with as little stress and turbulence as possible. IMO, ND is perfect for that sort of person and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that life.
However, if, like me, you want more out of life, ND isn't really a place that can offer much more. That's why you see these sorts of threads... where are the opportunities? If you've been looking for them in ND, you've been searching the wrong places.
I think this is where we differ and is one of the big reasons I left ND upon graduation from HS... in ND... you can "exist"... means are available for you to sustain life. What I would argue is that means do not exist to truly live... to experience all that life has to offer. Both the opportunities for life experiences and the finances to fund said experiences are missing in ND.
To some, existence is enough. They want to have kids... watch them grow... grow old together with someone they love... and die with as little stress and turbulence as possible. IMO, ND is perfect for that sort of person and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that life.
However, if, like me, you want more out of life, ND isn't really a place that can offer much more. That's why you see these sorts of threads... where are the opportunities? If you've been looking for them in ND, you've been searching the wrong places.
Yes, this is exactly right. There is no right or wrong here. It's just a matter of how you want to live life and what you are willing to do to sustain it. I think most of the people who post here (complaining about North Dakota) have more of your philosophy. Again, nothing wrong with that. But, for those with simpler lifestyles, it seems to me, ND might be a good choice. Actually, where I live now in Utah used to be a lot like North Dakota is now. Wages were low, population was low... I did just fine. Then Utah grew. I did not grow with it. I simply want to get back to that simple "existence" that you referred to. Thus the strong probability of me moving the ND. I've also considered smaller areas in Utah. But... the population boom will just keep going on and on here, and spread to the smaller places in the state. So, it's time to move on.
Kind of hard then to be a doctor....accountant....IT specialist....meteorologist (like me)...financial consultant....engineer....therapist (like my wife is a born and raisd ND resident), or any number of fields. I make over 40/hr and she about 25/hr at the local hospital. My dentist just built a 500K home north of town and two doctors built 800k homes along Belmont in Grand Forks where previous homes were wiped out in the 97 flood, but are not protected. Majority of the above we know and did get degrees at NDSU or UND. I got mine at Iowa St. There are quite a few wealthy farmers out there as well. The one next to my inlaws..there net worth is over $1 million and the wife takes a month in Hawaii in January. We have neighbors who farm but live in town and both had college degrees in agriculture and each pulls down easy well over $100k a year as sugar beets are quite profitable in most years. I am sure any number of those dont consider a college degree worthless. They went into a field where there is demand.
I am not denying there are many folks out there NATIONWIDE that have degrees and cant find jobs to pay back their loans....but that is everywhere and in Canada too.
Not everyone wants or can be a doctor or go into a field that is demanded. This is the only place where I found my college degree to be worthless. If I knew I was going to be moving to North Dakota, I would have just gotten my GED and have been done with ever wanting to be anything more than a cook at McDonald's. Geez. I hate that people push college. I really think they should be more reasonable with kids in high school. In this day and age, it is not necessary or even smart to go to college. They should show typical wages for all types of jobs, in several different areas. If you go to college you assume you will come out making the 35k average a yr (this is what statistics tell us) but you are WRONG. You will not make that for many, many years until after college. Coupled with school loans and private loans, a low paying job and living in a small town....you're pretty much screwed before you even had a chance to start your life. It's unfair and unreasonable. I think we should follow the European example and extend college to public education. Why charge for it at all? We don't charge for public school. This would ensure more children got the education they want, had more options, and actually wanted to go to school. We value education and knowledge so much but we make it unreachable for so many and regrettable for the ones who do get it. Why should those who further their knowledge and better themselves be punished with loans they can't pay back and low paying unsatisfying jobs they went to college to get away from in the first place? And not allowing them to go bankrupt or forgive their loan when this happens but some big shot can blow up 500k in credit cards and he can go bankrupt and be forgiven? It gives children a very sad and poor outlook at school and education at all. Wages should be in accordance with the price and living in a particular area. With a university in Minot, you would assume that they would understand this stance but from what I have seen...they do not. I think the #1 reason I dislike Minot is because they boast low cost of living and simplicity. What they offer is hard to find jobs, outrageous housing prices and now real job availability or diversity. I know several people who work two jobs...some even work 3 jobs. It's as if it is expected to make it here, that is what you have to do. Then why live here at all?
I think this is where we differ and is one of the big reasons I left ND upon graduation from HS... in ND... you can "exist"... means are available for you to sustain life. What I would argue is that means do not exist to truly live... to experience all that life has to offer. Both the opportunities for life experiences and the finances to fund said experiences are missing in ND.
To some, existence is enough. They want to have kids... watch them grow... grow old together with someone they love... and die with as little stress and turbulence as possible. IMO, ND is perfect for that sort of person and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that life.
However, if, like me, you want more out of life, ND isn't really a place that can offer much more. That's why you see these sorts of threads... where are the opportunities? If you've been looking for them in ND, you've been searching the wrong places.
I agree with you totally and completely. There are no opportunities in ND. And when forced to move here and live here by the government and they don't give you an expectancy of how long you will live here, help you find jobs, help you with loans you can't pay back with these low wages...it can be become a very stressful time. Our wages are enough to help us now, but if we want to get away and take vacations we can't. If something happens to one of us or our cars or our houses, we can't afford to pay those bills. We barely have enough to save anything at the end of the month. So when people say that if you live simply these wages are enough, I am not sure exactly what they mean. We don't have cable. We don't go out at all during the week and only go out to dinner once on the weekend. That's four times a month. We don't go to the mall, we don't shop online. We don't do any of these things that are considered excess but I can tell you...these wages are not enough. ND is not enough. I am thoroughly frustrated with trying to find jobs. Trying to create a better life for us when it is seemingly impossible. But I suppose there are people like that everywhere.
... and die with as little stress and turbulence as possible. IMO, ND is perfect for that sort of person and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that life.
Reading back through your post, this sums it up for me perfectly. Especially the "as little stress and turbulence as possible" part. Another reason North Dakota looks to be a good fit for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by etjaipleure
I think the #1 reason I dislike Minot is because they boast low cost of living and simplicity. What they offer is hard to find jobs, outrageous housing prices and now real job availability or diversity. I know several people who work two jobs...some even work 3 jobs. It's as if it is expected to make it here, that is what you have to do. Then why live here at all?
Your area is experiencing a boom (the oil boom). That's the way it is in a boom area. It happened around my area about 15 or 20 years ago. Except here, it was a "high tech boom." Computer nerds flocked in and were pulling down wages that allowed them to pay ridiculous prices for homes (and of course, the housing industry jumped all over that). That left the folks that were already here screwed. Home/property prices are still ridiculous in most of the state. I can go out in the middle of the desert and find some reasonable prices, but that is about it--the scorpions, rattlesnakes, and I could live a modest lifestyle out there. Otherwise, as you said, it's working 2 or 3 jobs to afford what most people would consider a "normal" lifestyle in our society. It's one of the reasons I've become such an advocate of minimalism. If you have nothing to pay for, you don't need the money to pay for it. Also, although I don't share his end-result strategy, I'm a huge fan of Dave Ramsey's advice on finances--I share his views on the tactical approach to debt and finance completely. I think with that approach, living fairly comfortably on a small wage is doable (although his ultimate goal is to become filthy rich, the lifestyle to achieve that can likewise work for a minimalist who really couldn't care less about becoming rich).
I agree with you totally and completely. There are no opportunities in ND. And when forced to move here and live here by the government and they don't give you an expectancy of how long you will live here, help you find jobs, help you with loans you can't pay back with these low wages...it can be become a very stressful time. Our wages are enough to help us now, but if we want to get away and take vacations we can't. If something happens to one of us or our cars or our houses, we can't afford to pay those bills. We barely have enough to save anything at the end of the month. So when people say that if you live simply these wages are enough, I am not sure exactly what they mean. We don't have cable. We don't go out at all during the week and only go out to dinner once on the weekend. That's four times a month. We don't go to the mall, we don't shop online. We don't do any of these things that are considered excess but I can tell you...these wages are not enough. ND is not enough. I am thoroughly frustrated with trying to find jobs. Trying to create a better life for us when it is seemingly impossible. But I suppose there are people like that everywhere.
---And when forced to move here or live here by the government----
Whoa !
Your husband is the one in the military ( not you)
He voluntarily enlisted and should have known you get assigned to places that might not be his first choice.
You are not being forced by the government for anything.
You voluntarily married your husband and should have known what military life would be like when you got married.
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Otherwise, as you said, it's working 2 or 3 jobs to afford what most people would consider a "normal" lifestyle in our society. It's one of the reasons I've become such an advocate of minimalism. If you have nothing to pay for, you don't need the money to pay for it. Also, although I don't share his end-result strategy, I'm a huge fan of Dave Ramsey's advice on finances--I share his views on the tactical approach to debt and finance completely. I think with that approach, living fairly comfortably on a small wage is doable (although his ultimate goal is to become filthy rich, the lifestyle to achieve that can likewise work for a minimalist who really couldn't care less about becoming rich).
