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Old 09-02-2013, 11:34 AM
 
208 posts, read 187,956 times
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I think the way the world is going, not having children is the best way to prevent suffering.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trundle View Post
and why "can't you compare"? Of course we can compare them, and find both "wanting", actually.
Well, it's more than apples and oranges. For example, there is plenty of data that shows the negative effects of divorce on children. There are not going to be negative effects of divorce on children from intact homes. You may find something wanting, but why should people like my husband and his family agree? That's not their reality.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I'm saying that I don't buy into the idea that we are not at the helm in our lives. Frankly, I don't know how anyone cannot realize that divorce harms children.
I think this is at the root of your objections and I hear you. I agree that an intact family has better odds of success with their children than a broken family. I agree that divorce is hard on children -- absolutely, particularly the typical divided household situation which greatly complicates coordinated discipline and encourages divided loyalties. I even agree that parents should not throw up their hands and claim that nothing they do matters. At the very least, parents can do their children great harm, and they help matters by applying as their first dictum, just as doctors do, "first, do no harm".

A good friend of mine had the difficult job of raising a nephew after one of his siblings was convicted of murdering the child's father. He realized very quickly that his job was "to keep the kid from killing himself or harming my own children". He would have been content with just surviving the experience. As it turned out, eventually, the nephew got his act together, married well, and became a responsible and mentally healthy adult. I do not think that my friend takes much credit for this, but at least he can take satisfaction that he did no harm, and did the Right Thing.

All I'm saying is that too many parents pour their hearts and souls into their children and have outcomes that can most charitably described as indifferent and disappointing, relative to the high minded ideals they started out with. I want those parents not to beat up on themselves or feel obligated to accept beatings from others. All anyone can ask of anyone, in any endeavor, is that they do their very best. I also want prospective parents to give at least 10 minute's serious thought to not having children because having children is too often seen as just the "next thing that will fulfill me" rather than a very serious question of whether we want to create a new life and be responsible for that, given the total situation on the ground.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:10 PM
 
19,078 posts, read 21,915,686 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
All I'm saying is that too many parents pour their hearts and souls into their children and have outcomes that can most charitably described as indifferent and disappointing, relative to the high minded ideals they started out with. I want those parents not to beat up on themselves or feel obligated to accept beatings from others. All anyone can ask of anyone, in any endeavor, is that they do their very best. I also want prospective parents to give at least 10 minute's serious thought to not having children because having children is too often seen as just the "next thing that will fulfill me" rather than a very serious question of whether we want to create a new life and be responsible for that, given the total situation on the ground.
I hear you and I do agree. I don't deny that it doesn't happen (great upbringing/bad kids). I just think these people are a minority and the stats show this to be the case as well. I also agree very much that people should pause before having children. I think people should pause before getting married or making any huge life decision. It is quite sad, and horribly irresponsible, that some people just have kids because that's the next thing to do. So, I'm on board with the call to mindfulness across the board.
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:59 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia Area
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Zero guarantee makes rolling the dice worse.

The problem is that it's not the child who's making the decisions about the value proposition; it's the child's parents making it. And largely based on the parent's needs, wants, hopes and dreams.

Of course a non-existent being inherently can't evaluate that question; but at the very least this should make us very cautious in imposing existence, unasked for. Christians always claim to be reluctant to "play god" but when it comes to having children it's another matter. I suppose the decree to "be fruitful and multiply" doesn't help.

By the way, I don't claim that it's a total crap shoot and we have no influence over outcomes; only that we have less than most people in my experience assume that they do.
Bullzeye!!!

In the current global economic environment there are more people and less chairs everyday. Even today only about 30% of people have a bachelors degree and not even all of them get a decent job. Many of them are suffering a great deal when you see the jobs they have and student loan debt. And remember these are the top third of academic achievers.

Last edited by CK78; 09-04-2013 at 04:17 AM..
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:42 AM
 
19,078 posts, read 21,915,686 times
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Originally Posted by CK78 View Post
Bullzeye!!!

In the current global economic environment there are more people and less chairs everyday. Even today only about 30% of people have a bachelors degree and not even all of them get a decent job. Many of them are suffering a great deal when you see the jobs they have and student loan debt. And remember these are the top third of academic achievers.
I think people have more influence in this arena than they realize. We get to choose our major(s), internships, volunteer work, RA'ing and TA'ing that is the best fit for the region we choose to live in and industry we want to work in while in college. Just because some/many don't take these things into consideration doesn't make it a crapshoot or those who did as just lucky. I've come across that statement many times. With that said, I'm not saying luck or being unlucky is entirely abscent either.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,087,623 times
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I think people have more influence in this arena than they realize. We get to choose our major(s), internships, volunteer work, RA'ing and TA'ing that is the best fit for the region we choose to live in and industry we want to work in while in college. Just because some/many don't take these things into consideration doesn't make it a crapshoot or those who did as just lucky. I've come across that statement many times. With that said, I'm not saying luck or being unlucky is entirely abscent either.
Well ... I have made an income in software development over the past decade easily twice that of most former graduate students and I've done it with zero college degrees, in fact, zero college education. That is partly native talent and intelligence and hard work but it also has a big element of luck in it in that I had no control over the talent or intelligence parts and was just darned fortunate to start out during the "fortunes made in garages" early PC era where there was a lot of low-hanging fruit that eased me getting established in consulting. By the time it was meaningful to ask about college education specific to my sub-field, I already had equivalent experience and reputation, and the lack of college education didn't really matter.

So I think life outcomes consist of a lot of luck and (mis)fortune but I will admit to making the most of the hands life has dealt me -- both this relatively fortuitous professional hand, and my relatively unfortunate family / personal relationship / metaphysical hands. I also am grateful to a number of people who have stood with me during different phases of my life. In short: I couldn't have done what I've done without the willing help of close friends and family and colleagues, my own hard work ... and a boatload of luck. I calculate that professionally, about 20% of it was thanks to me, 20% to a little help from my friends, and 60% good (enough) luck. In terms of my personal life, probably 70% thanks to me, 30% thanks to an inordinate amount of help from my friends, and 0% luck, because while there was some good luck, there was an awful lot of bad luck, such that really, I should express that as a negative number. And frankly the 70% donation from yours truly has aged me prematurely. But I made it. Yay. Pulled myself up by me bootstraps, so I did, but it feels like a Pyrrhic victory in a lot of ways.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:16 PM
 
3 posts, read 5,122 times
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You know what is selfish? Having kids in a world like this...My sister for example, had a severely deformed daughter who was born with a rare syndrome. My niece who is now 9 years old suffers bullying in school because of her appearance, kids make fun of her, spank her... She doesn't have friends. She cries every day. She says what she most want is to die. What did this innocent creature do to deserve such suffering? Nothing. She was just conceived to the entertainment of my sister.

Everyone who brings kids to an horrible world like this is a criminal. Procreation is an immoral and irresponsible act which is only made to satisfy the needs of the parents, but it never takes into account the interests and welfare of the potential children. It's a total gamble and completely reckless to the adverse circumstances that may fall upon the life of the procreated.
Parents never care if their children will see life as a curse and will regret have been born. They just want someone to play with, or someone to take care of them when they get older. That's the SELFISH act. Also, this love that parents say that motivated them to procreate is selfish. They do it because this love feels good, because they are benefited by it.
The real altruistic feeling is empathy. And is for empathy that I have chosen not to procreate another human into this hell hole for my own gratification.

To parents, I hope your children only bring suffering to your lives, and abandon you when you get older.

To everyone there who has chosen to remain childfree, my deepest sympathies. And never let these criminals convince you that you are doing wrong and being selfish.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,748 posts, read 3,341,021 times
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Planning to not have children is not selfish. Not everyone wants to have children.

If anything is selfish it's people who really are not cut out to be parents who have children because it's time to have them - or worse, because they don't know what to do with their lives and they look to a child to give their lives meaning.

People should think of this as the most serious choice that they make in their life. It isn't like a job that you can quit or a college major that can be changed.

It's permanent.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:21 PM
 
186 posts, read 299,584 times
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90+% certainly dont do much of a job at being parents. We drastically need to cut back the population of the Earth by humans, or Nature is going to find a way to do it for us. Almost certainly, it will by by the means of the most horrible pandemic ever heard of.
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