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According the the Huffington Post, the Marine Corps has started removal proceedings against the Sergeant, who has doubled down on his postings and has disobeyed orders to stop.
He'll be gone before April Fool's Day. Somebody ought to stick a pointed cap on his head right now so he'll be used to it when he gets his discharge. You know that discharge ain't gonna say 'Honorable' anywhere on it.
And there is still time to put himself in the brig for 6 months before he gets escorted out the gate. Disobeying a direct order can accomplish that in a half-day, easy. There is not a pleasant hour spent in a Marine brig.
Don't worry about the Sergeant. FOX will hire him as a commentator within a month.
No one in his right mind wants to die so that Obama can figure out a way to get out of Afghanistan.
Note that said "wants to." The Marines in question "have to."
That's the price we pay for having a liberal President who wants to look tough. Just like LBJ.
GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW!
It's interesting that you lay the entire blame on Obama, as if he started the whole thing. Your partisan slip is showing.
The truth is that what we're seeing now in Afghanistan, a scurrying effort to find some excuse to claim "victory" and leave, has been the only possible outcome to that war since the first Special Forces hit the ground there more than a decade ago. With "victory" defined as the imposition of a functioning, freely elected democracy, the die was cast from day one because anybody who knows anything about that whole region knows that was not going to happen, and will not happen, no matter how long we stay.
You can blame Obama if you like and count on someone new, like Romney, to do something different but it's not going to happen. THERE IS NO OTHER OUTCOME to this war and the only question left to answer is whether we'll leave with a modicum of dignity or run with our tails between our legs as have other empire builders who made the mistake of embroiling themselves on Afghan's plains.
Afghanistan today is a direct result of the incredible hubris of believing that we American's could somehow do what nobody else has ever done. If you want to assign blame, lay it at the feet of those ideologues who believed their own propaganda, who bought the lie of American Exceptionalism, who would not admit there are things we simply cannot do and threw us into a place from where the only exit is by defeat.
Tell me again what is necessary about bleeding our troops in a hellhole where the population hates us and the enemy has the tacit support of the "government" there we installed.
This is Vietnam II, my friend. And you know it. We're letting our guys die so that Obama can figure out to get us out of that tribal sh1thole filled with people in dresses who like to stone women to death for wanting to learn to read.
Talk about cheap seats: I did my time in a fuitle war while your predecssors were cheering on the Vietcong. So don't give me any of your partisan BS.
The situation in Afghanistan now is similar to Vietnam in its latter days, while I was there. None of us wanted to be the last to die for a failed cause either, but we were there and still doing what was asked of us, whether we liked it or not. Sometimes, we'd rebel against our military leaders, and a lot of guys blamed Nixon unfairly, but anybody who suggested we could just quit obeying orders because we didn't like the President would buy himself a fast ticket to the Long Binh Jail.
Tell me again what is necessary about bleeding our troops in a hellhole where the population hates us and the enemy has the tacit suppot of the "government" there we support.
This is Vietnam II, my friend. And you know it. We're letting our guys die so that Obama can figure out to get us out of that tribal sh1thole filled with people in dresses who like to stone women to deat for wanting to learn to read.
Talk about cheap seats: I did my time in a fuitle war while your predecssors were cheering on the Vietcong. So don't give me any of your partisan BS.
I've explained my position before in many posts in many threads. For starters, their population does not hate us. Our invasion and subsequent ousting of the Taliban was very popular amongst the Afghans -- even the Pashtuns, who are the ethnic group that most supported the Taliban. By 2001, the Taliban had worn out their welcome with most Afghan people. One of the main things about the Taliban that pissed the Afghans off is how closely they were tied to and controlled by foreign invaders .. the Arab Al Qaeda.
The government we established in the aftermath of the Taliban's ousting polled in the 90s for approval rating up until around 2007. Then, it started to decline due to government corruption mostly, but just general disillusionment. Amazingly, Karzai's government still polls in the 60s.
Moving along to some of your other points, Karzai does not support the Taliban. He is trying to stay in power there after we leave. Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, wants to be in charge after we leave. That makes Karzai's government and the Taliban rivals. Karzai is currently trying to win the hearts and minds of the conservative Pashtun tribal elements that may be prone to support the Taliban while still maintaining support from the Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Turkmen and other tribal elements in the country. Any "support" you think he may be providing the Taliban is a misreading on your part. He's trying to show the Pashtun that he can be a strong, conservative leader too -- without resorting to extreme Taliban tactics.
So why does this matter to us? Well, if the Taliban does take over again, Mullah Omar will invite terrorists from around the Muslim world (primarily from the Arab parts though) to come hang out in Afghanistan and take all of the time they want and need to come up with terrorist plots against the United States and its western allies. You might ask: who cares? Terrorists can plot to kill us from anywhere. True, but it's a lot better to have them plotting in Saudi Arabia or Morocco or Germany.. why? Because these nations have police forces that are actively thwarting their plots, so they aren't nearly as successful. If you're a criminal, it's nice to have a hideout. We're there to try to deny the terrorists the strategic advantage that a failed Aghanistan will provide. And, we're actually pretty close to mission success. We won't know until we leave, but if Karzai is able to maintain power after we're gone, we won. The Taliban will be tied up fighting him and won't have the time to dig in, invite AQ back, and get down to plotting death to us.
This is not Vietnam. I know that people like simply analogies. It makes things more easy to comprehend. This is about as similar to Vietnam as the War of 1812 was to the Revolutionary War or the Spanish American War was to World War II. If you educated yourself about the specifics of this war, you'd understand why very smart people on both sides of the aisle think it's a good idea for us to stay long enough to give Karzai's government a fighting chance.
Thank you for your service in Vietnam. I was born the year after all US troops pulled out. I grew up in the shadow of that war, but I have no direct experience with it. Hindsight is 20/20, and obviously the domino theory was incorrect. Vietnam fell to the Communists, and at the end of the day, it didn't really matter.
I'm not sure what makes you think my predeccessors were cheering for the Vietcong .. I'm not even sure who my predecessors are ... US soldiers? People who think that each war deserves unique study and attention?
I've explained my position before in many posts in many threads. For starters, their population does not hate us. Our invasion and subsequent ousting of the Taliban was very popular amongst the Afghans -- even the Pashtuns, who are the ethnic group that most supported the Taliban. By 2001, the Taliban had worn out their welcome with most Afghan people. One of the main things about the Taliban that pissed the Afghans off is how closely they were tied to and controlled by foreign invaders .. the Arab Al Qaeda.
The government we established in the aftermath of the Taliban's ousting polled in the 90s for approval rating up until around 2007. Then, it started to decline due to government corruption mostly, but just general disillusionment. Amazingly, Karzai's government still polls in the 60s.
Moving along to some of your other points, Karzai does not support the Taliban. He is trying to stay in power there after we leave. Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, wants to be in charge after we leave. That makes Karzai's government and the Taliban rivals. Karzai is currently trying to win the hearts and minds of the conservative Pashtun tribal elements that may be prone to support the Taliban while still maintaining support from the Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Turkmen and other tribal elements in the country. Any "support" you think he may be providing the Taliban is a misreading on your part. He's trying to show the Pashtun that he can be a strong, conservative leader too -- without resorting to extreme Taliban tactics.
So why does this matter to us? Well, if the Taliban does take over again, Mullah Omar will invite terrorists from around the Muslim world (primarily from the Arab parts though) to come hang out in Afghanistan and take all of the time they want and need to come up with terrorist plots against the United States and its western allies. You might ask: who cares? Terrorists can plot to kill us from anywhere. True, but it's a lot better to have them plotting in Saudi Arabia or Morocco or Germany.. why? Because these nations have police forces that are actively thwarting their plots, so they aren't nearly as successful. If you're a criminal, it's nice to have a hideout. We're there to try to deny the terrorists the strategic advantage that a failed Aghanistan will provide. And, we're actually pretty close to mission success. We won't know until we leave, but if Karzai is able to maintain power after we're gone, we won. The Taliban will be tied up fighting him and won't have the time to dig in, invite AQ back, and get down to plotting death to us.
This is not Vietnam. I know that people like simply analogies. It makes things more easy to comprehend. This is about as similar to Vietnam as the War of 1812 was to the Revolutionary War or the Spanish American War was to World War II. If you educated yourself about the specifics of this war, you'd understand why very smart people on both sides of the aisle think it's a good idea for us to stay long enough to give Karzai's government a fighting chance.
Thank you for your service in Vietnam. I was born the year after all US troops pulled out. I grew up in the shadow of that war, but I have no direct experience with it. Hindsight is 20/20, and obviously the domino theory was incorrect. Vietnam fell to the Communists, and at the end of the day, it didn't really matter.
I'm not sure what makes you think my predeccessors were cheering for the Vietcong .. I'm not even sure who my predecessors are ... US soldiers? People who think that each war deserves unique study and attention?
Sometimes I wonder why I come here. Then I read a post like this. Something that transcends the usual partisan crapola.
It's interesting that you lay the entire blame on Obama, as if he started the whole thing. Your partisan slip is showing.
Obama is the President. He wanted the job; he got the job. It's his war, since he is the CIC. Or do you disagree?
Quote:
The truth is that what we're seeing now in Afghanistan, a scurrying effort to find some excuse to claim "victory" and leave, has been the only possible outcome to that war since the first Special Forces hit the ground there more than a decade ago. With "victory" defined as the imposition of a functioning, freely elected democracy, the die was cast from day one because anybody who knows anything about that whole region knows that was not going to happen, and will not happen, no matter how long we stay.
Obama thought different, remember? And the left wing cheered him on, roaring about "It's about time! We should been there in the first place! Not stuck in Iraq, like that dummy Bush!"
Quote:
You can blame Obama if you like and count on someone new, like Romney, to do something different but it's not going to happen. THERE IS NO OTHER OUTCOME to this war and the only question left to answer is whether we'll leave with a modicum of dignity or run with our tails between our legs as have other empire builders who made the mistake of embroiling themselves on Afghan's plains.
Romney has as much chance to be elected as a Coca-Cola franchise in Provo, Utah. Obama has no clue. Funny how you don't hold O's feet to the fire as ignorant of history....
Quote:
Afghanistan today is a direct result of the incredible hubris of believing that we American's could somehow do what nobody else has ever done. If you want to assign blame, lay it at the feet of those ideologues who believed their own propaganda, who bought the lie of American Exceptionalism, who would not admit there are things we simply cannot do and threw us into a place from where the only exit is by defeat.
I agree with you 100% here. But remember that the hubris started wth LBJ in Vietnam. It is truly incredible that we, as a people, coud have such short memories and that our leaders -- including St. Obama -- could be so blind.
Obama is the President. He wanted the job; he got the job. It's his war, since he is the CIC. Or do you disagree?
Obama thought different, remember? And the left wing cheered him on, roaring about "It's about time! We should been there in the first place! Not stuck in Iraq, like that dummy Bush!"
Romney has as much chance to be elected as a Coca-Cola franchise in Provo, Utah. Obama has no clue. Funny how you don't hold O's feet to the fire as ignorant of history....
I agree with you 100% here. But remember that the hubris started wth LBJ in Vietnam. It is truly incredible that we, as a people, coud have such short memories and that our leaders -- including St. Obama -- could be so blind.
I'm not saying Obama has done nothing wrong. He has. He is no more perfect than you or I and we have no right to hold him to a standard we cannot meet ourselves.
But, he's playing the hand he was dealt and I don't know what else anyone thinks he could have done better.
This is not Vietnam. I know that people like simply analogies. It makes things more easy to comprehend. This is about as similar to Vietnam as the War of 1812 was to the Revolutionary War or the Spanish American War was to World War II. If you educated yourself about the specifics of this war, you'd understand why very smart people on both sides of the aisle think it's a good idea for us to stay long enough to give Karzai's government a fighting chance.
How long might that be, do you think? We've been there ten years. How about 20? 30? How high do you want to go? Screw these barbarians. The analogy to Vietnam is certainly valid. It's an unwinnable war with no end in sight, against a foe which has the tacit support of the people and what passes for a government there, regardless of how many polls you cite (I can just see the polling techniques. Absurd.)
Quote:
Thank you for your service in Vietnam. I was born the year after all US troops pulled out. I grew up in the shadow of that war, but I have no direct experience with it. Hindsight is 20/20, and obviously the domino theory was incorrect. Vietnam fell to the Communists, and at the end of the day, it didn't really matter.
That domino theory was incorrect unless you were a Lao or a Cambodian. Or a Catholic or Buddhist. Otherwise, you are correct. So the Communists threw a few thousand people into jail and exiled countless others who made their way out at the cost of countless deaths, rapes, and other atrocities. So they instituted a brutal regime that continuesto struggle with such basic things as free speech and travel.
Quote:
I'm not sure what makes you think my predeccessors were cheering for the Vietcong .. I'm not even sure who my predecessors are ... US soldiers? People who think that each war deserves unique study and attention?
People who say of 55,000 dead GIs -- "at the end of the day, it didn't really matter." You're willing to stay in Afghanistan for another ten, twenty years? No, wait. You're willing for somebody ELSE to stay there and be blown up by those barbarians so that they can continue to grow opium and memorize the bloodier parts of the Koran.
Afghanistan. The terrorist hideout. Think Pakistan. Or do you want to send our guys there, too?
Last edited by Yeledaf; 03-24-2012 at 05:16 AM..
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