Is there a place any more for a moderate? (activist, healthcare, borders)

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

These are indeed pocketbook issues but aren't at least 2, if not all 3 protected already by federal law?

2 are protected under federal law, but there are no enforcement mechanism or reporting portals to actually make them realistic.

In fact, whom do the poorest unskilled workers compete with for jobs and wages? Whom do you see cleaning hotel rooms, restrooms, bussing tables and so forth? Where I live about 90% are hispanics with poor english skills, we all know a good number of them are illegal. I personally love hispanics, half my family is hispanic whose grandfather immigrated here. My college roomate, the same...they're a doctor now.

These arent jobs citizens tend to get or look for, so this is a moot point to me that is just used to make racial arguments.

Hey, I have a good education and a nice upper middle class job. My kids are on the same track so it helps me to have cheap labor mowing lawns, doing dishes and working at the chicken processing plant.

But for the poorest Americans, their direct competition is the illegal laborer. Does anyone actually refute that here? Anybody?

Yes, I refute it. Not on a micro level, but on a macro one yes. Im sure some people in my area have lost out on a job cleaning Condos , but i think they are few and far between, but at the same time, I blame the company hiring more than the illegals.

[bpollen]

Originally Posted by dsjj251

People in Ohio voted for Republicans who voted for NAFTA and against Democrats who fought it and voted no.

even if you want to claim Trump was better than Hillary on that issue, You cant say Portman was better Strickland and so on and so forth.

But back to the main reason I posted the video, there is a clear divide in this guys mind when it comes to the issues on race and sexual orientation. He seems to believe that Democrats can not support Minorities and White people at the same time. Do you not have a problem with that logic ?

I didn't know that, but looked it up. Even though Clinton lobbied for this agreement (a deal he struck w/Republicans, I think), most Democrats in both the Senate and the House voted against it, while most Republicans in both houses voted for it.

[Delahanty]

LOL I knew it.

Like the OP, liberals always think they're "moderate."

[bpollen]

Originally Posted by dsjj251

2 are protected under federal law, but there are no enforcement mechanism or reporting portals to actually make them realistic.




These arent jobs citizens tend to get or look for, so this is a moot point to me that is just used to make racial arguments.



Yes, I refute it. Not on a micro level, but on a macro one yes. Im sure some people in my area have lost out on a job cleaning Condos , but i think they are few and far between, but at the same time, I blame the company hiring more than the illegals.

Just a comment about your comment that citizens don't look for jobs like that (hotel maids & housekeepers), just fyi...who had those jobs before there were so many illegal immigrants here? One of my grandma's earned a living as a young widow with three boys to raise, by working as motel and hotel maids all her life, and waitressing. She was bent over and had shot knees at too young an age, but she earned enough to buy coveralls for the boys (not shoes...they went barefoot for years) and food on the table (and probably got free leftovers from where she worked). My Dad was one of those boys. My Mom met him in first grade and remembered his bare feet swinging underneath his desk, and him wearing coveralls with no shirt.

That's who worked those jobs. Do Americans still have that work ethic? I don't know. All I know is that's who used to work those jobs. Now, some people begrudge these poorest of the poor food assistance or Medicaid, when the fact is, those easy-to-get jobs for people w/o skills no longer go to people like them. They really do lose out on those jobs.

[bpollen]

Originally Posted by Delahanty

LOL I knew it.

Like the OP, liberals always think they're "moderate."

Please re-read my OP. I said I was a moderate liberal. And I am.

(It makes a difference when you read for information, as opposed to looking for something to hate or disagree with.)

[katygirl68]

Originally Posted by bpollen

I didn't know that, but looked it up. Even though Clinton lobbied for this agreement (a deal he struck w/Republicans, I think), most Democrats in both the Senate and the House voted against it, while most Republicans in both houses voted for it.

Yes, and most Democrats were against illegal immigration at that time while the Republicans were okay with it because it suppressed wages. But that’s not the Democratic Party of today.

[katygirl68]

Originally Posted by bpollen

Just a comment about your comment that citizens don't look for jobs like that (hotel maids & housekeepers), just fyi...who had those jobs before there were so many illegal immigrants here? One of my grandma's earned a living as a young widow with three boys to raise, by working as motel and hotel maids all her life, and waitressing. She was bent over and had shot knees at too young an age, but she earned enough to buy coveralls for the boys (not shoes...they went barefoot for years) and food on the table (and probably got free leftovers from where she worked). My Dad was one of those boys. My Mom met him in first grade and remembered his bare feet swinging underneath his desk, and him wearing coveralls with no shirt.

That's who worked those jobs. Do Americans still have that work ethic? I don't know. All I know is that's who used to work those jobs. Now, some people begrudge these poorest of the poor food assistance or Medicaid, when the fact is, those easy-to-get jobs for people w/o skills no longer go to people like them. They really do lose out on those jobs.

I had a friend years ago who started a cleaning business where they would clean office buildings, but that business has been outbid so many times it no longer exists. Same with construction workers.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by katygirl68

Yes, and most Democrats were against illegal immigration at that time while the Republicans were okay with it because it suppressed wages. But that’s not the Democratic Party of today.

When have Democrats ever supported illegal immigration ? at best you mean Democrats support allowing asylum seekers to actually seek asylum. This entire immigration debate has been about the treatment of those people, not whether or not they can seek asylum.

IF that is your argument, remember that immigration is in the scope of the executive when it comes to where they can seek asylum and how, Trump could with the stroke of a pen, end all of this, but hasnt, because he knows it would be wrong to.

Your entire argument is based on you already supporting one side and not looking for facts.

For example.

TPP was up for a vote on June 12th, 2015.

191 Republicans in the House voted for it, only 54 against

28 Democrats voted for it, 157 voted against.

In the Senate. there were 4 procedural votes

they mostly line up the same with between 10 and 13 Democrats voting for and all the other 35 Dems voting against.

On the Republican side, only Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, and Susan Collins voted against.

Yet somehow Democrats are the party that gets attacked on free trade.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by bpollen

I didn't know that, but looked it up. Even though Clinton lobbied for this agreement (a deal he struck w/Republicans, I think), most Democrats in both the Senate and the House voted against it, while most Republicans in both houses voted for it.

Presidents' Reagan and Bush actually negotiated NAFTA, Clinton supported Trade promotion, so basically Clinton was keeping the word of the Previous administration

But yes, Democrats wrongly get attacked as the pro trade party and I have no understanding of how.

Rob portman and Ron Johnson both voted for TPP, and beat Anti NAFTA Democrats.

Originally Posted by bpollen

Just a comment about your comment that citizens don't look for jobs like that (hotel maids & housekeepers), just fyi...who had those jobs before there were so many illegal immigrants here? One of my grandma's earned a living as a young widow with three boys to raise, by working as motel and hotel maids all her life, and waitressing. She was bent over and had shot knees at too young an age, but she earned enough to buy coveralls for the boys (not shoes...they went barefoot for years) and food on the table (and probably got free leftovers from where she worked). My Dad was one of those boys. My Mom met him in first grade and remembered his bare feet swinging underneath his desk, and him wearing coveralls with no shirt.

That's who worked those jobs. Do Americans still have that work ethic? I don't know. All I know is that's who used to work those jobs. Now, some people begrudge these poorest of the poor food assistance or Medicaid, when the fact is, those easy-to-get jobs for people w/o skills no longer go to people like them. They really do lose out on those jobs.

I have no problem with this argument, Every open job is an opportunity for those who need it(although I blame the company more than the illegals)


But the unemployment/under-employment numbers(BLS survey) clearly show that most working or looking for work Americans arent hurting from not having these jobs.

[katharsis]

Originally Posted by dsjj251

You used it as an example of how illegals were taking advantage of the system when talking about their kids getting free educations. Since illegals pay those taxes, they dont get a free education, thats my point.

Because your employer pays your taxes on your behalf when they fill out their taxes. What comes out of your paycheck as payroll taxes are technically a reimbursements to that company(our tax system is slightly more complicated than most realize)

So in short, as long as the company employing illegals claims the right number of employees, then they are paying for those those illegals as well.

My point -- and I am going to say this just one more time -- is that many people (and NOT just people here illegally) often don't pay their fair share of taxes. Also, if employers pay "under the table", they do certainly do not report it -- unless I am very much mistaken about that! Wouldn't they get in trouble for that if they did.

Taking a very simple example, when I babysat years ago and received 50 cents an hour, "Mrs. Smith" did not take taxes out of the $3.00 or so she gave me, and neither of us claimed it on any tax form. If you apply that to anyone employing unskilled labor and who pays them "under the table", there are two people who benefit -- the employers and those they employ. If people are not paying their fair share in taxes, they are, in my opinion, getting something for much less than they should.

In other words, what I am saying, is that many employers do NOT claim the "right number of employees."

Okay, I am now through with this particular thread.

P.S. And, yes, I do know that employing babysitters is NOT the same thing as employing landscapers or construction labor, but the underlying argument is the same, I think.