QB GOAT: Greatest of All-Time? Who? (Patriots, Jets, Cowboys, Giants)

[echo7tango]

In alphabetical order, these are the greatest QBs of all time:

Troy Aikman
Sammy Baugh
Terry Bradshaw
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Randall Cunningham
Len Dawson
John Elway
Boomer Esiason
Brett Favre
Dan Fouts
Otto Graham
Bob Griese
Sonny Jurgensen
Jim Kelly
Sid Luckman
Archie Manning
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Joe Montana
Warren Moon
Joe Namath
Jim Plunkett
Aaron Rodgers
Ben Roethlisberger
Phil Simms
Ken Stabler
Bart Starr
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkenton
Joe Theismann
YA Tittle
Johnny Unitas
Norm van Brocklin
Kurt Warner
Steve Young

Of these, my 8 greatest of all time are, in order:

1) Tom Brady
2) Joe Montana
3) Johnny Unitas
4) Otto Graham
5) Sammy Baugh
6) John Elway
7) Dan Marino
8) Peyton Manning

After them, on the next tier are, sorted alphabetically (I won't rank them):

Troy Aikman
Terry Bradshaw
Brett Favre
Jim Kelly
Aaron Rodgers
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkenton

Those are my top 15 QBs of all time. But the GOAT is Brady, not Montana.

[DOUBLE H]

While we're on the subject of lists, NFL Films came out with their own list which was broadcast on the NFL Channel in late March of 2011. It's called, simply, "NFL Top 100- NFL's Greatest Players."

An 85 member panel was involved in the picks which consisted of former players, statisticians, tv analysts, owners, general managers, coaches, scouts, and HOF selectors. I'll list just the quarterbacks.

100. Joe Namath
91. Fran Tarkenton
83. Norm Van Brocklin
81. Steve Young
80. Troy Aikman
51. Bart Starr
50. Terry Bradshaw
46. Roger Staubach
33. Sid Luckman
25. Dan Marino
23. John Elway
21. Tom Brady
14. Sammy Baugh
8. Peyton Manning
6. Johnny Unitas
4. Joe Montana

Keep in mind, this was November 2011 when NFL Films did this special. A couple years ago a 4 disc DVD set was released with 5 to 7 minute bios on the players. I've had mine for a while now, I looked at Amazon recently and noticed the price has dropped to around $11 if you have a prime account. It's worth it, I've sung the praises of NFL Films regarding their work for years, for that matter, decades. A 40 page booklet comes with it with liner notes by Steve Sabol.

I recommend it!

[Jonathan Ashbeck]

^^ Excellent names listed. Being a Packer fan, I would always know that Bart Starr was one of the greatest QBs of all time in NFL history. Also, I really am not sure if he's been mentioned yet or not but I'm going to add Phil Simms. He was very good too. He won two Super Bowls; XXI and XXV. He was also Super Bowl MVP of Super Bowl XXI.

[Babe_Ruth]

Originally Posted by Unsettomati

there simply is more talent in the modern era.
Third, there simply was far less competition back then.
Look at it this way: It's a harder to win a conference title now (you have to be the best of 16 teams) than it was to win an NFL title before the league expanded to 16 teams in 1967.

Unsett, hi..
How can you prove that modern players are more talented (?) A guy like Baugh played on both sides of the ball. It's hard to prove that modern players have that talent now because they are forced to be more specialized. I don't think we can really prove which era has more natural talent.. we're not really seeing modern players play to their full potential. Your assessment (stated as matter-of-fact) is completely speculative.

Having fewer teams doesn't necessarily mean less competitive play, just means fewer players in a league. I could argue more players & franchises actually dilutes the high level of competition & limited spots previously reserved for a more elite standard.

If titles are supposedly harder to win in the Super Bowl era, how do u explain Pittsburgh's dominance of the 70s, Niners dominating the 80s, Cowboys dominating the 90s, and Pats dominating the 21st century.. Where is proof that it was easier for Baugh to win a title than Brady.. Brady has won more.
My opinion, Baugh & Graham should be recognized for excellence vs. their peers, not diminished because of their era. peace

[murksiderock]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE H

While we're on the subject of lists, NFL Films came out with their own list which was broadcast on the NFL Channel in late March of 2011. It's called, simply, "NFL Top 100- NFL's Greatest Players."

An 85 member panel was involved in the picks which consisted of former players, statisticians, tv analysts, owners, general managers, coaches, scouts, and HOF selectors. I'll list just the quarterbacks.

100. Joe Namath
91. Fran Tarkenton
83. Norm Van Brocklin
81. Steve Young
80. Troy Aikman
51. Bart Starr
50. Terry Bradshaw
46. Roger Staubach
33. Sid Luckman
25. Dan Marino
23. John Elway
21. Tom Brady
14. Sammy Baugh
8. Peyton Manning
6. Johnny Unitas
4. Joe Montana

Keep in mind, this was November 2011 when NFL Films did this special. A couple years ago a 4 disc DVD set was released with 5 to 7 minute bios on the players. I've had mine for a while now, I looked at Amazon recently and noticed the price has dropped to around $11 if you have a prime account. It's worth it, I've sung the praises of NFL Films regarding their work for years, for that matter, decades. A 40 page booklet comes with it with liner notes by Steve Sabol.

I recommend it!

That's a good list. One has to think that in the five years since, both Brady and Manning have risen, and Brees, Roethlisberger, and Rodgers have entered the fold:

-Brady, who already had 5 SB appearances when that came out, ventured to a 6th, won his 4th, and his 3rd SB MVP. He's set the td:int ratio record, been to 6 more AFC Championship Games, and has thrown for over 26,000 more yards and 195 TD to just 49 interceptions. He also had a 5000 yard season in there. He also was the MVP runner-up twice (2011, 2015). Personally, I think he was kinda low for even 2011...
-Manning went to two Super Bowls in 5 seasons (truly four after missing '11) since, winning one. If he was that high then, he'd have to be higher now, although should he be higher than Brady? He won his 5th MVP in '13 and was MVP runner-up in '12. Statline over 17000 yards with 140 TD to 53 int, he did that in four seasons(!). Set the single season record for yards and touchdowns, became the all-time leader in yards and touchdowns, and wins...
-if Brees didn't deserve to be on a GOAT list then, he has to now, right? He's currently the all-time record holder for career completion percentage and yards per game. He's had 5 of his 6 5000 yard seasons since 2011, 31000 yards with 230 TD to 88 int. Was the 2011 MVP runner-up...
-Ben is the best QB of his class of 2004, edging Rivers due to consistent success (rings!) And more consistent play. However, does he deserve to be on a list of GOAT's? The biggest thing I would have to ask of Ben is, is he better than Bradshaw? Bradshaw was ranked the #10 QB, if Ben isn't the best QB in Steelers history, I guess he probably won't make the list. Also, Ben is the only guy here who wasnt an MVP or MVP runner-up since '11. His numbers are not as gaudy as the other guys--24000 yards, 155 TD to 74 int. He also missed the most time after Manning (10 games), but he does have an appearance in his 5th career AFC Championship. But I didn't see Bradshaw play, I'm only 27! Help me out here, HH!!
-Rodgers has won two MVP's since that list came out ('11, '14). He's got two more NFC Championship Game appearances under his belt, set the single season passer rating record, is the all-time career leader in passer rating, over 24000 yards with 210 TD to just 40 interceptions. This guy's TD/Int ratio is through the ceiling (5.25:1), with a 6.9 td% to 1.3 int%, easily better than the other guys I'm mentioning...

So my question (task lol) to you, HH, being that you're a veteran compared to myself, how would you CURRENTLY rank these five players amongst NFL Film's list form 2011?

[ColoGuy]

Simms was a great quarterback. His career was on the short side and he was prone to fumbling due to average sized hands. Plus Hostetler won that second SB.

We are not talking about great quarterbacks. We are speculating on the best.

In fairness to quarterbacks of bygone eras, we could further define the list to be qb's active within the past 25-30 years.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck

^^ Excellent names listed. Being a Packer fan, I would always know that Bart Starr was one of the greatest QBs of all time in NFL history. Also, I really am not sure if he's been mentioned yet or not but I'm going to add Phil Simms. He was very good too. He won two Super Bowls; XXI and XXV. He was also Super Bowl MVP of Super Bowl XXI.

[echo7tango]

Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth

How can you prove that modern players are more talented (?) A guy like Baugh played on both sides of the ball.

"Slingin' Sammy" Baugh played on all three sides of the ball.

There is one season where Baugh set a record that will never be broken. Without looking it up and if memory serves, in the same season Baugh led the league in TD passes thrown and punting average and pickoffs (interceptions) on defense.

Offense, defense, and special teams, he played on all three. Okay, maybe a Danny White-type of guy might be able to lead in two of those, but all three in the same season?

Never.

[Bill the Butcher]

Originally Posted by ColoGuy

In fairness to quarterbacks of bygone eras, we could further define the list to be qb's active within the past 25-30 years.

That helps some, but it's still pretty hard to compare QBs who played primarily in the 90's and 80's to ones who have played the majority or all of their career post 2004 or so. That's around when the league really took off as a passing league. You would never see these QB rating numbers from QBs in the 80's and 90's and that's mostly due to how the game was played back then. There is a reason why Brett Favre at the age of 40 put up his greatest season ever with the Vikings. The game had changed greatly since the mid 90's and allowed for him to accomplish more with his mind despite his physical talent not being what it was. He could also continue to stay on the field because he wasn't getting punished by d-lineman like he would have on a regular basis in the 90's.

How is it that QBs like Peyton and Brady can each post their second greatest season statistically 9 years after they posted their best season at the ages of 37 and 39 respectively? Aaron Rodgers won't be 37 until the 2020 season. I'm wondering what kind of season he'll be putting up if he chooses to play at those advanced ages. I do think it will become more common for QBs to play up to and possibly past 39-40 and years of age.

[DOUBLE H]

Murksiderock! Whazzup?

I'll get into the 5 qb's a bit later, have a few words on Terry Bradshaw here.

There are some out there who questions how a quarterback who won 4 super bowls comes in at 50 when Joe Montana comes in at number 4.

Bradshaw had a tenuous relationship with Chuck Noll pretty much his whole career. I saw Bradshaw play at Mile High stadium a few times, the first time was 1970. He had one of the strongest throwing arms in the league but he would make a lot of mistakes. The Steelers finally came together in 1972, going to the AFC Championship against Miami. But Noll wouldn't hesitate putting in Terry Hanratty or Joe Gilliam in if Bradshaw struggled.

In his first few years Bradshaw was always in and out of Chuck Noll's doghouse. So much so that by 1974 Noll started the season with "Jefferson Street" Joe Gilliam. Bradshaw's stats for 1974 was 67 completions out of 148 attempts for 785 yards for 7 touchdowns with 8 interceptions. QB rating was 55.2. In week 2 I saw Gilliam put 35 points up on Denver, the game ended in a 35-35 tie, the first game in NFL history that game going to overtime ended in a tie. But halfway through the season Gilliam started to struggle, Terry Hanratty was not the answer either. Finally Noll went back to Bradshaw and said he will start for the rest of the season, that "we are going to sink or swim with terry." They won the super bowl that year with him. And three more. His stats got better as his career went along but his total stats have him with 212 td's and 210 interceptions. QB rating was 70.9.

One thing that will always be held against him is the supporting cast. The Steelers during the 1970's put eight players in the HOF. Owner Art Rooney also went in at that time, Chuck Noll went in a couple years ago. That makes ten.

Ben Roethlisberger has been in three super bowls and won two. IMO Ben will be in the top 30 of that best player list by the time he retires, especially if he wins another super bowl. He doesn't have the supporting cast Bradshaw had. He's a hell of a quarterback in his own right, I've always said that.

[mco65]

DH,
you can't just throw a name out there like JEFFERSON STREET and leave it at that..

Affectionately known as 'Jefferson Street' Joe Gilliam.. named after the famed Jefferson street in Nashville, TN. He was a two-time All American from Tennessee State University in Nashville. A school that regularly put guys in the NFL back then, ie.. Too Tall Jones, Claude Humphrey, Richard Dent..

Growing up in and around Nashville.. I used to watch the Sunday Morning show with coach John Merritt (TSU head coach) as he would talk about Saturdays game.. (no cable back then so it was either Merritt or some Church Service on tv). Merritt was part of my football education.. and Joe Gilliam was the star... As i remember, Joe Gilliam Sr was a coach on that team.. and in fact became head coach after Merritt left.. any hoot Jefferson street was one of the best QB in the Country back then and had he been able to stay clean, we likely would have never known the name Terry Bradshaw.. JMO...

As sad as his story is, i can't help but smile when i hear the name Jefferson Street Joe... it truly brings me back to a time when i was just a young boy sitting on the living room floor watching football in the front of an old console TV... i miss those days a lot.. 24/7 football just aint the same and i don't think we as fans appreciate it like we used to.. at least i know i don't!

I distinctly remember Joe Passing away several years ago from a drug overdose, no doubt. What a DAMN shame! When they talk about the best that never was, Jefferson Street Joe has to be near the top!