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I looked at the poll results and think some of you are lying about your fear of death and being dishonest. I think some of you, on your deathbeds, will be terrified of dying and possibly going to some form of Hell. You don't fear it now, but I have a feeling some of you will eventually. I can't verify this, but it's my opinion.
Wow! I didn't even have to field this one; everyone else jumped on it.
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Originally Posted by abf5000
There is no need to get nasty or call me ''Delusional'' because of my personal spirituality. Nowhere did I say I was religious or believed in Hell. You're the ones berating me for having the opinion that some of you have a fear of dying/possibly going to some form of Hell in the back of your mind that you have repressed. You can act arrogantly now, but you probably won't be acting that way on your deathbed.
Do you not find it hypocritical to ask others not to get nasty or insinuate your crazy or blind to the truth? Seriously?
I guess it's just impossible to convince you that atheists, real bona fide atheists (not agnostics) do not believe in places with fire or angels. I mean, we just don't believe it. We don't believe it anymore than we believe in pink unicorns or elves or flying bunny rabbits. We just don't believe in it. I don't think we can make that clearer to you.
Obviously, if you think we're lying, then there is nothing we can say or do about that; but that's definitely your issue not ours.
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Originally Posted by abf5000
Look at what Thomas Paine and Voltaire, a couple of anti-religious Deists, supposedly said on their deathbeds. I have no idea if they actually said those things in the video on here, but if all those quotes were confirmed to be real, it would bother me if I was an Atheist and make me a little uneasy. Why are you angry? Did I strike a nerve with the Hell thing?
Why would Paine or Voltaire's doubt have any effect on me (if it were true)? They are not my idols or my gods. The conviction they had hundreds of years ago has no effect on mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abf5000
You're telling me all Atheists are absolutely free of the fear of those things? Yeah right, they have no idea what happens after death, and they fear death despite all of their boasting otherwise.
Now, you've changed the subject. Death and fiery infernos are not the same. Please stick to one topic.
The OP doesn't seem to realize that christianity isn't the only religion that has a belief in hell. Islam is another religion that holds the belief in eternal torture. I wonder why they think that atheists are afraid of going to the biblical hell, but christians aren't afraid of going to the islamic hell. The thread topic wasn't really asking a question. The OP had preconcieved conclusions about what atheists believe and then decided they were lying and being dishonest when their responses were contrary to his preconcieved ideas. I find that the only one being dishonest here is the OP.
There is no need to get nasty or call me ''Delusional'' because of my personal spirituality. Nowhere did I say I was religious or believed in Hell. You're the ones berating me for having the opinion that some of you have a fear of dying/possibly going to some form of Hell in the back of your mind that you have repressed. You can act arrogantly now, but you probably won't be acting that way on your deathbed. Look at what Thomas Paine and Voltaire, a couple of anti-religious Deists, supposedly said on their deathbeds. I have no idea if they actually said those things in the video on here, but if all those quotes were confirmed to be real, it would bother me if I was an Atheist and make me a little uneasy. Why are you angry? Did I strike a nerve with the Hell thing?
I never said you were delusional, maybe you have difficulty with reading comprehension.
I was never angry, I was simply voicing my opinion that if you don't like the poll results, deal with it. When you ask atheists if they believe in religious concepts what do expect them to say? Really, what?
It isn't about 'acting' arrogant, the issue is rejecting religion and religious ideas. Many people here are ex christians with a lot of knowledge about all kinds of religions. I put it to you that you are the arrogant one coming to a forum, posting a poll, then calling us liars for not posting what you want to see.
The notion that there are "no atheists in a fox hole", has no merit because there is no proof people convert under stressful situations. The same goes for the deathbed conversion.
If you were an atheist you would feel perfectly fine with not believing in hell because you would have rejected silly notions based on lack of verifiable evidence
I looked at the poll results and think some of you are lying about your fear of death and being dishonest. I think some of you, on your deathbeds, will be terrified of dying and possibly going to some form of Hell. You don't fear it now, but I have a feeling some of you will eventually. I can't verify this, but it's my opinion.
I have absolutely no fear of death whatsover. Pain and lack of dignity towards the end of my life petrifies me but death , sorry to disappoint you , really not an issue with me. And I have faced death on several occasions and "God" never even entered my mind in any way shape of form. I never pleaded for a deity to help nor did I suddenly start to pray in the hope I would be saved.
The terror of lasting excruciating physical agony is something real I can identify with. I don't like pain. But what is so terrible about death ? The sweet embrace of total oblivion and permanent peace. Sounds pretty darn good to me actually.
Death to me is just another natural process . We are born, we live ( hopefully in as fulfilling, meaningful and happy a fashion as humanly possible)and then we die. With our last breath the decaying process begins and I like that circle of life aspect of it. The idea of rotting in a field and turning into rich soil sounds like wonderful poetry to me. Feeding the earth which has fed me for my natural life. What could be more natural and more perfect ?
I have never understood this fear of death. Why be afraid of something which you won't even be aware of as you will be gone. To me once we die this is it. Nothing more, no eternal life, no angels, no St Peter with keys to the gates of Heaven.
Of course some Atheists will grasp at straws towards the end, death is a huge process difficult for humans to process and understand in its full reality.
The instinct to survive is always strong , it is an innate primal need and most of us will cling on to every single hope that life is not quite over for them,but if you think that a deathbed conversion is meaningful of anything other than natural apprehension I think you are sadly mistaken.
My Great-Uncle spent almost 4 years in Death camps. He saw far more religious people leaving their God than finding one. There were people praying to be saved and others cursing the God who allowed their agony.
We react to different stresses in different ways but until faith is freely given and through a clear and logical mind ( a bit of a oxymoron that one really, logic and faith though) with no stresses of any kind then all it is is an animal response to an overwhelming stress.
I am perfectly ready for death. It holds no fears to me. Disease and illness however now these are the scary things which take guts to face.
Don't try and project your own feelings onto others. We are not all alike and some of us even have a mind of our own strangely enough.
You're correct about hell only exists here, but only for those that create their own hell. Life is to short to spend in a hell of your own creation.
I don't think the people caught in war and famine, etc. have created their own hell. Hell is often brought to them via the U.S. empire and EU, etc.... It is very callous of you to say and think that everyone chooses their own hellish circumstances. Abused children do not choose their hell. Raped and murdered people do not choose their own hell. Many people held in prison and tortured do not choose their hell. Hell is put upon most people by selfish, unloving, evil men/humans. You have always seemed a rather cold person. I know you do not represent all atheists - they're not all as rude and callous as you - that's for sure.
So you believe things based on no evidence whatsoever.
No surprise -- that much was clear from your silly opening post.
Well, yes. The supposed deathbed recantations of Paine and Voltaire were quite quite ingenuously admitted to be unverified. I'll check up up, by the way. I had a look at the ones for Gibbon and Darwin and they turned out to be theist lies.
However, does the poster have a point? Is there not a residual creeping fear of hellfire and 'What if it's true?'
Well, not much. In fact surprisingly little considering how much its been dinned into us and the sheer terror of the concept.
I remember..mumble mumble...young feller me lad...in the 60's when armageddon was being touted with everyone going down with boils and the dead being bulldozed into pits. The horrific images still stick with me. But you know the end of the world pronouncements don't bother me any more than hellthreat does.
No doubt the attention paid might be interpreted as 'You wondered just for a minute, didn't you?' No. not more than a tiny percent of it could be possible but I wouldn't risk a dime on it.
What's this about? It is that from the Simpsons 'Just for a moment you wondered about that angel, didn't you?' to George Burns and getting the court to gaze in expectation for God to appear. Yes, one can play some mind tricks with the tiny benefit of doubt one really has to give even to the stupidest claims.
What does this indicate, much less prove? That humans can never ever be totally free of fear, superstition and gullibility. In some ways it's a more reasonable position than claiming that there is not even a 1% doubt.
It is in my mind to ask the theist whether there isn't any doubt in his or her mind about the reality of God, the Christianity claims and life after death.
Come on, no doubt at all? Not even those few percent? Even when there is actually no good evidence to support them? Absolutely 100% lack of doubt?
Well, I can only say like the poster that the doubts are there but are denied. And even the few percentage of doubt that are denied are far less than there ought to be considering how tatty and ramshackle the theist claims are.
P.s Looking at Paine, there were one or two attempts on his penultimate and last day of life to get him to accept Christianity or Jesus or God. Ingersoll had something to do with reporting that he dismissed such people. There was, at best, some claims that he said 'My God' but that was certainly not anything to do with a change of beliefs even if he said it. I shall keep looking but the claims of a last gasp recantation don't seem to be substantiated.
Of course, even if he decided to take Pascal's wager right at the last minute, that would not do a single thing to prove it true. It would just prove how effective appalling threats can be.
P.ps.
The following affidavit was subscribed and sworn to by William B. Barnes of Wabash, Indiana, October 27, 1877:
"In the year 1833 Willet Hicks made a visit to Indiana and stayed over night at my father's house, four miles east of Richmond. In the morning at breakfast my mother asked Willet Hicks the following questions:
"'Was thee with Thomas Paine during his last sickness?'
"Mr. Hicks said: 'I was with him every day during the latter part of his last sickness.'
"'Did he express any regret in regard to writing the "Age of Reason," as the published accounts say he did?'
"Mr. Hicks replied: 'He did not in any way by word or action.'
Did he call on God or Jesus Christ, asking either of them to forgive his sins, or did he curse them or either of them?'
"Mr. Hicks answered: 'He did not. He died as easy as any one I ever saw die, and I have seen many die in my time.'"
he above is corroborated by Dr. Philip Graves who met Mr. Woodsworth in 1842. Dr. Graves says:
"He told me that he nursed Thomas Paine in his last illness, and closed his eyes when dead. I asked him if he recanted and called upon God to save him. He replied, 'No. He died as he had taught. He had a sore upon his side and when we turned him it was very painful and he would cry out, "O God!" or something like that.' 'But' said the narrator, 'that was nothing, for he believed in a God.' I told him that I had often heard it asserted from the pulpit that Mr. Paine recanted in his last moments. The gentleman said that It was not true, and he appeared to be an intelligent truthful man."
Paine's executors were Walter Morton, a lawyer of New York, and Thomas Addis Emmet, a brother of Robert Emmet, the Irish patriot. Both attended Paine and both testified that no change took place in his opinions. Mr. Morton, who was present when he expired, says:
"In his religious opinions, he continued to the last as steadfast and tenacious as any sectarian to the definition of his own creed."
, William Cobbett, afterwards a member of Parliament, wrote a refutation of it. Mr. Cobbett's refutation, ...,"to calumniate him has been an object of their peculiar attention and care. Among other things said against this famous man is, that he recanted before he died; and that in his last illness he discovered horrible fears of death."
"I happen to know the origin of this story, and I possess the real original document whence have proceeded these divers editions of the falsehood....a Quaker of New York, named Charles Collins, made many applications for an interview with me, which at last he obtained. I found that his object was to persuade me that Paine had recanted...."The informer was a Quaker woman, who, at the time of Mr. Paine's last illness, was a servant in the family of Mr. Willet Hicks, an eminent merchant,
... To our surprise, on seeing Mr. Hicks, as a duty which we owed the public, we learned that Mary Hinsdale never saw Paine to Mr. Hicks' knowledge;"
Anything that one was raised to believe, that became ingrained, has the tendency to tickle the back of ones mind occassionally and it might take reminding oneself that you no longer need to pay attention to those niggling little thoughts.
That, among other things, can account for the miniscule percentage mentioned above.
It does not, however, count as legitimate belief anymore than continuing to believe you're a worthless piece of crap "just like your father" or that you're hopelessly stupid, if you were unfortunate enough to have had a parent that constantly told you that.
No, you're missing what I'm saying. Look at what those men in the video supposedly said. If the quotes are real, that means they were terrified of dying and feared that Hell existed. You're telling me all Atheists are absolutely free of the fear of those things? Yeah right, they have no idea what happens after death, and they fear death despite all of their boasting otherwise. Atheists aren't anymore enlightened than the rest of us. You also act as if Christianity has been conclusively debunked, which it hasn't.
You're moving the goal posts, however. The question is "Are you scared that Hell might exist? Do you have any doubts?"
Being afraid or unsettled by being unsure of what happens when we die is NOT AT ALL the same as being afraid of a mythical underworld of torture and pain.
The question should be not if hell exists, but if one leads a good life does it matter if one is an atheist? I would say that if one is an atheist and leads a good life, hell is not a worry. On the other hand, if one professes to be a Christian or Jew and does not lead a good life, they will go to hell.
I see so many so called religious people avoid death, they are scared of it. It tells me they do not really have the faith they profess.
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