U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,570,942 times
Reputation: 1023

Advertisements

NOT to believe in God's existence means that I don't presume that God exists (and presuming that God exists is NOT a necessary presumption) AND haven't seen compelling evidence that God exists. There are many atheists who have this stance.

To believe that "there is NO GOD" means that I have compelling evidence that God does NOT exist. That is, I would believe that I have exhausted all manner of possible sources of evidence and logical possibility and must conclude that God does not exist. Only a few atheist philosophers have gone this far in their writings. Logically, it is an impossible position to sustain because no human being can exhaust most/all of reality while seeking evidence for God's existence. This is akin to saying "there's no dog in this room," which can be a truthful statement only if the room is closed and finite in size and the entire room is lit and I can see the entire room at the same time and I see no dog in the room. BTW, this is an example of a belief or conclusion that depends upon INDUCTIVE REASONING. (See the writings of the English philosopher David Hume for a critique of inductive reasoning.)

Logically, and in language, the two beliefs are not the same thing.

Last edited by ParkTwain; 03-04-2009 at 07:51 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:23 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,241,087 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
You really do need to view the entire thread.
I can't muster (sp?) through 16 pages of bickering. Sorry. I've participated in enough threads on the net though. They're all pretty similar lol.

Quote:
Those who purport the nonexistence of a transcendent eternal being are asserting a negative. Logic dictates that a negative assertion cannot be proved. Therefore, faith must fill in those areas that cannot be empirically proved.
As I'm sure it's been pointed out to you, asserting negatives isn't a past time taken on by many. It's certainly not something I bother with. I deal with what's in front me. If nothing's there, I don't notice it.

Quote:
Now, you may find this fact to be "disrespectful." This particular instance may jive with the old adage that 'the truth hurts.'
You must not know many religious people (theists that is). I do. My family has strong faith in their deities. I know some Hindus, Jains, and Wiccans too. Their faith brings them all kinds of things (hope, strength, fear, connection, personal revelation, etc). My not noticing something that isn't there isn't of the same caliber. Your suggesting that it is, isn't disrespectful to me, but it's disrespectful of their (and religious peoples in general) trip imo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:26 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,241,087 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
NOT to believe in God's existence means that I don't presume that God exists (and presuming that God exists is NOT a necessary presumption) AND haven't seen compelling evidence that God exists. There are many atheists who have this stance.
People tend to get confused between strong Atheists and weak atheists. This is a good article that covers the differences.

Myth: Atheism is a Denial of God That Requires Faith | Why Do So Many Misunderstand Atheism, Atheists, and Disbelief?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,570,942 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
People tend to get confused between strong Atheists and weak atheists. This is a good article that covers the differences.

Myth: Atheism is a Denial of God That Requires Faith | Why Do So Many Misunderstand Atheism, Atheists, and Disbelief?

Yes, thank you, I have been making the same case here and on other C-D forums. This basic exposition has neither been seen widely nor widely understood by theists. (I'm also not wild about that author's use of the word 'disbelief' as part of his exposition. Disbelief can occur for an active reason, which is not the same as disbelief due only to not accepting the opposite presumption.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:39 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,241,087 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Yes, thank you, I have been making the same case here and on other C-D forums.
From what I've found, this confusion highlights that the issue is more the theist, rather than the atheist. In the few conversations I've had with my mom, where I've mentioned that I don't buy into the religion (I conveyed it kindly) she raised me with, she becomes offended. It's about her; her faith, her relationship with her deity; her worldview. And she's moved to defend it even though I've never spoken negatively about it. I'm quite happy that she has something that might bring her joy. Again, it never has anything to do with me, but with her. And rightly so because I bring nothing to the table in the way of theistic faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:42 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,241,087 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
(I'm also not wild about that author's use of the word 'disbelief' as part of his exposition. Disbelief can occur for an active reason, which is not the same as disbelief due only to not accepting the opposite presumption.)
Yea, I'm assuming the intent was for the latter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,021 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
My not noticing something that isn't there isn't of the same caliber.
You continue to insist on missing my point.

You cannot prove that the "something (allusion to a transcendent eternal being) that isn't there" is in fact not there.

Do you believe in truth and honesty?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,763,673 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Everyone has a world view.

All world views require faith.

Can it then be fairly stated that everyone is, at least in the very basic definition, religious?
Religious is defined in my dictionary as "relating or devoted to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity"

Now, faith is another story. Even though I also think that the defintion of religous could vary I think faith has more differing definitions.
However, I base my reply on this one. Belief and trust in God.

As far as everyone has a world view, I agree. We all have world view.

All world views require faith. No because it requires the belief in God.

I do not think everyone is not religious because not everybody believe in God.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:59 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,241,087 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
You continue to insist on missing my point.

You cannot prove that the "something (allusion to a transcendent eternal being) that isn't there" is in fact not there.

Do you believe in truth and honesty?
You're missing a key point. I wouldn't attempt to prove that something that isn't here, isn't here. That's so redundant and rightly so. It wouldn't dawn on me to do so. The way your posts are reading, you think it's a common undertaking and I'm not sure why.

Do I believe in truth? hmmm. I guess it depends. Truth about what?

I abide by honesty. I don't know if I'd call it a belief though. I'll have to think on that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,021 times
Reputation: 106
[quote=ParkTwain;7737588]To believe that "there is NO GOD" means that I have compelling evidence that God does NOT exist.quote]

Evidence for or against is in the eye of the beholder. The theist asserts proof. The atheist asserts proof.

Could we agree to a level playing field? In view of a supposed lack of undeniable empirical proof for either, FAITH must fill in that area which cannot be empirically proven?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top