Thoughts on retiring to NYC (student, opinions, mature, children)

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by jm02

Yes, I seem to recall from another thread that there was no end to the reasons you would never return to Philly. That aside, I hope you realize how fortunate you are that you could nonetheless easily afford a "luxury place" here, as the price tag on luxury has gone up just a touch since your salad days here decades ago.

All of this has surfaced some memories I have that have shaped my beliefs and behavior around wealth. I was raised by working class parents in Delaware whom I feel instilled in me a solid work ethic along with the value of a dollar. Further, growing up in Delaware, home of the DuPont family, I also came to understand how those who have accumulated real money through several generations handle their wealth. The DuPonts, while living well, also gave generously to their home state in the form of highways, schools, hospitals, and untold anonymous philanthropic causes. Also, in the small state of Delaware, anecdotes were shared about how the family handled their notoriety: Basically, they sought to stay out of the limelight. One of the richest members was known to drive an old Chevrolet, and you would never know if the fellow or gal drinking a tankard of beer at the tavern next to you was a family member or not based on their clothing or demeanor. There homes were tasteful and blended in with their northern Delaware landscape, largely out of sight to most passers by. In essence, they chose to hide in plain sight.

So imagine my fascination when I moved to Houston, Texas in my late twenties to begin my career with a major global company. Talk about a culture shock! The more wealth one had, the more those Texans liked to show it: Big hair, big jewelry, shiny clothing, gaudy and gilded mansions, Rolls Royces - you name it. One of the biggest shocks was the local paper featured a society column by Maxine Messenger (you've got to love that name). Your current standing on the social ladder was clearly evidenced by the lines of newsprint you managed to fill in any given day in Maxine's column. There, for all the world to see, were the details of San Tropez vacations (to which they traveled 1st Class!), ski chalets bought and sold in Aspen and San Moritz, lavish birthday lunches with gift bags for all the attendees (readers were made privy to the contents), soirees hosted at the Santa Fe opera festival, and the name dropping of Grade B celebrities overnighting at the "swankienda" (Maxine's clever coinage) of this of that local socialite. It was the opposite of hiding in plain sight - it was living out loud. The common appellation applied to folks who exhibit these behaviors is, as you probably know, nouveau riche. But like a train wreck or carnival freak show, it can be hard to look away if people take efforts to carry on in this manner.

So, based on what I have learned to date, I've adopted the practice of keeping the details our personal finances to ourselves. I always presume I am neither the richest nor poorest person in any gathering of family, friends and acquaintances. If I chose to boast of my wealth, I would seem a fool to those who have significantly more than me. OTOH, if I keep throwing my wealth in the face of those who have had less fortune than me, I risk generating resentment or perhaps even worse - feelings of inadequacy among those I care about. In the end, I've come to learn that wealth, class and taste don't always go hand in hand.

As a coda, I'll share that the Philadelphia Inquirer does not run a society column. It's nice to be home.

The reason the Inquirer doesn't run a society column - apart from the fact that almost no one does these days - is that unless you're an old main line Wasp there - you're not invited to the party - even as a spectator.

Different places have different attitudes about wealth. All I can say about Philadelphia is if you're not white and Waspy enough - you won't be aware of what goes on there. Because not only won't you be invited to the party (even as a spectator) - you won't be welcome there either - even if you could afford it.

When I worked my first job at a prestigious Philadelphia law firm - as a 2L student intern - the law firm had weekly luncheons. At a club where Jews weren't welcome as members - and women weren't allowed at all. So I - the only woman intern - COULD NOT ATTEND FIRM LUNCHEONS. You might see where that would stick a little in my craw. FWIW - a lot of "Main Line" Philadelphia hasn't changed to this day. Try joining a great golf club there if you're a Jew. Even if you have billions. You'll get blackballed.

Not that Philadelphia has/had any monopoly on that kind of stuff. It was as bad or worse in Miami (where we lived for 20+ years). Same no Jews at golf club stuff for many decades. And women not welcome in downtown eating clubs (even when they were clients of members - which grew to be a little embarrassing as women started to control business in terms of $$$).

I will tell you in all honesty that one reason we moved where we are now is - when we retired - we were avid golfers and tennis players. And the good clubs in Miami for those things were only open to Jews on a very limited availability basis (if they were available at all). Like tennis club X had a 10% Jewish quota - and you had to be a great player to join if you were Jewish (like you had to play at Wimbledon when you were younger). Even today in Miami - a club like Indian Creek only has a couple of Jewish members - like Carl Icahn - and not because there aren't a lot of Jews who don't have the money to join. Even lesser clubs weren't open to us. We were told politely by Wasp lawyer friends of ours that we should join Westside (the old Jewish club in a not so nice part of Miami - now closed). Even though my husband is a Wasp - and I'm Jewish (and he wouldn't have been particularly welcome at Westside).

Here - we have what's called "real estate clubs". If you can afford to buy the real estate - you can join the club. Regardless of race - religion - whatever. It was very refreshing to us. Don't know how things work in Houston (or Delaware either for that matter). But I think if one can afford to pay for something - and can meet any other requirements (like you have to be a really good golfer to join Augusta and some other places) - one ought to be able to do it without any type of discrimination.

IOW - my take/angle on this seems to be very different than yours. I know I have more than most (from charitable stuff) and a whole lot less than others (from working in Greater Miami Jewish Federation with some billionaires). I just never liked the discrimination that came with a whole lot of old Wasp garbage. Robyn

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52

New York has its downside...crowded streets where everyone seems to conduct themselves like they are the only one on that street. Rudeness and a lack of civility seem to abound.

I hope your feet are in great shape, because you will probably never walk on earth and grass again.

Manhattan smells like a urinal in the Summer months, and for good reason - its not like there are plenty of easily accessed public restrooms. Snow looks pretty in the City for about the first hour its on the ground - after that it becomes a filthy frozen mass of litter and debris.

Its not all bright lights, high style and glitter.

People born and raised in NYC have a different perspective than a transplant like me does - its all they know and its very hard for anywhere else to really live up to it, as far as the positive amenities go. Ive met people who have told me they didnt like other places because the crickets kept them awake all night. lol.

I would suggest renting a place up here for a few months, before you sell any property you may already own - if it seems like its almost as good as you imagined it to be, then make it a permanent move.

Good luck!

You know - one thing I could never understand about Manhattan was walking around on garbage nights - and the commercial establishments especially put dozens of ugly overflowing smelly garbage bags on the sidewalks. Are people in NYC allergic to garbage cans - and similar garbage containers? If so - why?

Also - I agree that public toilets on the streets are sorely lacking. OTOH - it's easy to find them in most except the smallest retail places - and museums as well. So just be aware of what's in the general areas you're frequenting (especially if you're a woman like me and don't like "doing your business" on the street). Robyn

[njkate]

Originally Posted by jm02

Yes, I seem to recall from another thread that there was no end to the reasons you would never return to Philly. That aside, I hope you realize how fortunate you are that you could nonetheless easily afford a "luxury place" here, as the price tag on luxury has gone up just a touch since your salad days here decades ago.

All of this has surfaced some memories I have that have shaped my beliefs and behavior around wealth. I was raised by working class parents in Delaware whom I feel instilled in me a solid work ethic along with the value of a dollar. Further, growing up in Delaware, home of the DuPont family, I also came to understand how those who have accumulated real money through several generations handle their wealth. The DuPonts, while living well, also gave generously to their home state in the form of highways, schools, hospitals, and untold anonymous philanthropic causes. Also, in the small state of Delaware, anecdotes were shared about how the family handled their notoriety: Basically, they sought to stay out of the limelight. One of the richest members was known to drive an old Chevrolet, and you would never know if the fellow or gal drinking a tankard of beer at the tavern next to you was a family member or not based on their clothing or demeanor. There homes were tasteful and blended in with their northern Delaware landscape, largely out of sight to most passers by. In essence, they chose to hide in plain sight.

So imagine my fascination when I moved to Houston, Texas in my late twenties to begin my career with a major global company. Talk about a culture shock! The more wealth one had, the more those Texans liked to show it: Big hair, big jewelry, shiny clothing, gaudy and gilded mansions, Rolls Royces - you name it. One of the biggest shocks was the local paper featured a society column by Maxine Messenger (you've got to love that name). Your current standing on the social ladder was clearly evidenced by the lines of newsprint you managed to fill in any given day in Maxine's column. There, for all the world to see, were the details of San Tropez vacations (to which they traveled 1st Class!), ski chalets bought and sold in Aspen and San Moritz, lavish birthday lunches with gift bags for all the attendees (readers were made privy to the contents), soirees hosted at the Santa Fe opera festival, and the name dropping of Grade B celebrities overnighting at the "swankienda" (Maxine's clever coinage) of this of that local socialite. It was the opposite of hiding in plain sight - it was living out loud. The common appellation applied to folks who exhibit these behaviors is, as you probably know, nouveau riche. But like a train wreck or carnival freak show, it can be hard to look away if people take efforts to carry on in this manner.

So, based on what I have learned to date, I've adopted the practice of keeping the details our personal finances to ourselves. I always presume I am neither the richest nor poorest person in any gathering of family, friends and acquaintances. If I chose to boast of my wealth, I would seem a fool to those who have significantly more than me. OTOH, if I keep throwing my wealth in the face of those who have had less fortune than me, I risk generating resentment or perhaps even worse - feelings of inadequacy among those I care about. In the end, I've come to learn that wealth, class and taste don't always go hand in hand.

As a coda, I'll share that the Philadelphia Inquirer does not run a society column. It's nice to be home.

Kudos to you!! All though reading the posts after this I think someone didn't get it

[Pine to Vine]

Robyn55 - I am confused by your response to my most recent post in this thread (Post 179). Before I get to that, however, you shared some information in your response that I would like to comment on:

Originally Posted by Robyn55

When I worked my first job at a prestigious Philadelphia law firm - as a 2L student intern - the law firm had weekly luncheons. At a club where Jews weren't welcome as members - and women weren't allowed at all. So I - the only woman intern - COULD NOT ATTEND FIRM LUNCHEONS. You might see where that would stick a little in my craw.

I have little doubt that what you are sharing is true. If my arithmetic is right, the time period of this phase of your life was around the late 60s/early 70s. If so, this was much longer ago than we realize when considering how much our society has evolved in that short time. In the late 60s/early 70s, we began to hear about something referred to as the "women's lib" movement. It was much less common then that women worked outside the home, and if they did, they typically worked in either administrative roles or in other lower paying "helping" fields such as nursing and education. As an aspiring lawyer, you were a pioneer, struggling to break new ground in a profession heretofore pretty much open to white males only. The fact that you were trying to break into this "old boys' club" as a Jewish woman only added to your challenge. So yes, I can see how the experiences you went through would "stick in your crawl."

All pioneers who challenge the status quo deserve our recognition for their grit and courage that opened doors for others to follow. Rosa Parks endured a lot of abuse, but in doing so made it just a touch easier for the next black person choosing to ride a bus in Alabama. The election of Barack Obama will make it seem not quite as exotic when we chose a person who is neither white nor male as our Commander in Chief. Michael Sam has made it more ordinary the next time we witness a man showing normal human affection for another man he loves. And so it goes. Thusly, the next woman and/or Jewish intern who tried to break into the "old boys' club" you faced probably got just one step further than you. So while you personally paid a pretty steep price those 40+ years ago, I hope you can take some pride and ownership in knowing you opened the door just a crack wider for others who followed you.

That said, I would hope some of the anti-semitism you experienced 40+ years ago has been overcome. In that time, Pennsylvania has twice elected and re-elected Jewish governors (Milton Shapp in the 70s and Ed Rendell in the 2000s) as well as sent Arlen Specter to DC as their senator for 30 consecutive years, staring in 1981. Do I think this means anti-semitism and cronyism is dead in PA or on the Main Line? Of course not. IMO, neither is sexism, racism, homophobia, or other systemic forms of discrimination. But I do believe they have diminished considerably in the 40+ years you left Philadelphia, and I believe they will be diminished even further 40 years from today.

Although I wanted to acknowledge the challenges you faced as a Jewish woman early in your career, the matter I'm fully unclear of is the bolded comment below:

Originally Posted by Robyn55

IOW - my take/angle on this seems to be very different than yours. I know I have more than most (from charitable stuff) and a whole lot less than others (from working in Greater Miami Jewish Federation with some billionaires). I just never liked the discrimination that came with a whole lot of old Wasp garbage.

I don't know what you took from my post. You state that your angle on "this" is not just different but very different from mine. I am confused as to what you think "this" is. Do you think it's that I am I favor of discrimination and a "lot of old WASP garbage"? If so, I am completely flummoxed as to how you found that in my words.

No, the very is simple story I told is was was to illustrate how I feel about flaunting any material comforts my husband and I might enjoy at this point in our lives. The essence of my message is this paragraph:

I've adopted the practice of keeping the details our personal finances to ourselves. I always presume I am neither the richest nor poorest person in any gathering of family, friends and acquaintances. If I chose to boast of my wealth, I would seem a fool to those who have significantly more than me. OTOH, if I keep throwing my wealth in the face of those who have had less fortune than me, I risk generating resentment or perhaps even worse - feelings of inadequacy among those I care about. In the end, I've come to learn that wealth, class and taste don't always go hand in hand.

Now, is the practice of flaunting personal wealth what you are referring to when you make this statement: "my take/angle on this seems to be very different than yours"? IOW, are you saying you routinely chose to openly share the details of your material comfort and wealth with others (including with strangers on this forum)? If so, then absolute - YES!!! - our views and practices are indeed very different. If not, then perhaps there is some confusion on your part as to what I wrote.

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by jm02

...I hope you can take some pride and ownership in knowing you opened the door just a crack wider for others who followed you...

Honestly I don't - because not much has changed. Except perhaps very superficially. For example - the very liberal Jewish firm I worked for in Philadelphia - Schnader/Harrison - now has woman partners. But 3+ times as many men as women. As for the more conservative Waspy firms like Drinker/Biddle - you'll be hard pressed to find any stats on line at all. WRT the litigation firms in south Florida - if they have any female lawyers at all - it's usually an appellate lawyer. It is still pretty much a man's world.

I am actually kind of happy that I retired in the mid-80's to handle our money. When it comes to personal money management - like they say - they don't know who the heck you are on the internet. Also - as the internet and on line trading developed - I didn't have to deal with male sexist pig money management guys either .

...That said, I would hope some of the anti-semitism you experienced 40+ years ago has been overcome. In that time, Pennsylvania has twice elected and re-elected Jewish governors (Milton Shapp in the 70s and Ed Rendell in the 2000s) as well as sent Arlen Specter to DC as their senator for 30 consecutive years, staring in 1981. Do I think this means anti-semitism and cronyism is dead in PA or on the Main Line? Of course not. IMO, neither is sexism, racism, homophobia, or other systemic forms of discrimination. But I do believe they have diminished considerably in the 40+ years you left Philadelphia, and I believe they will be diminished even further 40 years from today...

In terms of Jewish politicians and big northern cities - they tended to be Ds (except for someone like Arlen Specter - who I used to work for - who was an R for a lot of years and then changed to a D) and blacks voted for them. Today - things have changed. I think in 20 years - most Jews - except recent immigrants and the very rich - will have left large NE cities (to the extent they haven't done so already).

...No, the very is simple story I told is was was to illustrate how I feel about flaunting any material comforts my husband and I might enjoy at this point in our lives...

If you don't think you're flaunting whatever wealth you have - why do you say you live in "Center City" Philadelphia - as opposed to plain old "Philadelphia"? Having lived in that part of the world - I know that's code for "white people with money". As are similar code phrases like "Main Line" (which = white Waspy people with money). Robyn

[Pine to Vine]

^^^I have nothing to say in reply to your comments regarding Pennsylvania politics. I offered a few electoral facts I see as possible evidence of decreased anti-semitism in the long years since you've been gone. You see it differently. So be it. (See - wasn't that easy?)

I'll make just a few further observations on specific comments you made in your post. First, I'd like to touch on the following:

Originally Posted by Robyn55

Honestly I don't - because not much has changed. Except perhaps very superficially. For example - the very liberal Jewish firm I worked for in Philadelphia - Schnader/Harrison - now has woman partners. But 3+ times as many men as women. As for the more conservative Waspy firms like Drinker/Biddle - you'll be hard pressed to find any stats on line at all.

You are right. I was wrong in my earlier post to assume that your time interning as the first woman with a local law firm may have made it easier for women who followed you. It is just as likely that the law firm considered your time and performance there as a failed experiment and you may have actually made it harder for women who followed you. Please accept my apologies for assuming there is something positive you may contributed towards equality during your brief stay in Philadelphia.

Next, let's take a look at this:

Originally Posted by Robyn55

If you don't think you're flaunting whatever wealth you have - why do you say you live in "Center City" Philadelphia - as opposed to plain old "Philadelphia"? Having lived in that part of the world - I know that's code for "white people with money".

Really? No, really? Let's see what this 2011 report says: "In addition to Chinatown, the extended neighborhoods of Center City still retain a diverse mix of middle- and working-class residents: 54% Caucasian, 32% African American and 11% Asian. Greater Center City also contains more than 6,000 units of publicly subsidized housing."( https://www.centercityphila.org/docs...aphics2011.pdf) If you see such racial and economic diversity as adding a certain cachet to my neighborhood, then perhaps you value and appreciate diversity more than so many of your posts have led me to believe. Brava, Robyn55!

If you really see my listing of Center City as my location on an internet forum as "flaunting whatever wealth I have," then once again - so be it! I have no interest in dissuading you from any notions you may have about anything so trivial. For others curious about the real reason I list CC as my location: It's because others who post regularly in the Philly forum (where I am a more frequent poster) do likewise with their neighborhoods or suburbs. Perhaps folks do it differently in the Florida forum?? In truth, there is so much else that occurs in or comes out of the state of Florida that seems odd and aberrant to me that this minor variance of behavior among its CD posters is hardly noteworthy. Center City - the term locals use to refer to Philly's core downtown neighborhoods - is naturally known to you Robyn55 as you spent a brief period of time here. I've not observed it is common knowledge to those outside the metro.

Just as you have doubted anything else I've ever posted with regard to Philadelphia, I feel nearly certain you will not believe or accept as true anything I shared above. Given that, perhaps I can save you a post and both of us a lot of time by agreeing in advance to the following:

No 1. The facts and figures I posted above on Center City's racial and economic demographics were from a fake report I complied and posted on the internet just to fool you and others. Yep . . . I'm so busted. In reality, Center City (more commonly referred to by the polo playing crowd as "Beverly Hills East") is a gated community that limits not only home ownership but even entry solely to card-carrying white Protestant billionaires. It's pretty plush here, I must admit - but there I go flaunting again.

No 2. Robyn55 - You must be a soothsayer, as you continue to understand my actions, intentions and motivations better than I do. Uncanny - how do you do it?

See how obliging I can be?

Finally, I asked you the following: "Are you saying you routinely choose to openly share the details of your material comfort and wealth with others (including with strangers on this forum)?" In truth, I didn't expect a clear answer from you, so I'll just rely on my best guess.

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by jm02

...Finally, I asked you the following: "Are you saying you routinely choose to openly share the details of your material comfort and wealth with others (including with strangers on this forum)?" In truth, I didn't expect a clear answer from you, so I'll just rely on my best guess.

I'm honestly getting a little tired of your messages. Perhaps I'm just mustering the energy I need to get in gear for the holiday weekend coming up .

There are lots of us here (but not everyone) on the Retirement Forum who share lots of general financial and material and similar details when discussing everything from housing to investments to gifts to kids/grandkids to elder care stuff to whatever and etc. Many people here also share many intimate personal details of their lives - if only to (sometimes) ask questions - or (more frequently) vent.

I've never met anyone here FTF - but I could write you at least a paragraph about many people here. A general outline. Including estimated income and net worth based on what people have written about themselves. Where they live - how they live - their pensions (or lack of them) - how they talk about spending money - etc.

FWIW - I think it's useful when trying to convey information to other people to give them at least some idea of where you're coming from. And the more they're willing to tell you about themselves - the better you can tailor any information you have that might be useful to their particular situations. I try to give useful information here to people taking whatever they care to reveal about their financial situations in mind. Whether I'm talking about playing golf or going on Medicare.

Also FWIW - there are some parts of the world (whether the real world or in cyberspace) where people resent people who are better off than they are. Also places where people who are better off belittle those of lesser means. I've not found either to be the case here. We're all just people who aren't spring chickens anymore - and all of us are getting older every day. And we all try to help one another best we can. It's why I keep hanging around here - and hope you can get into the spirit of it too.

Robyn

[Pine to Vine]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

I'm honestly getting a little tired of your messages.

LOL, Robyn 55 - I'm not surprised! It probably does start to wear on you when one claim after another is debunked by a simple internet search. But if you're tired, imagine how I feel. You've merely logged on and posted whatever fanciful thoughts have popped into your head. I've chosen to do the research necessary to prove that so many "facts" you post fall a bit short of the truth. Now that is tiring, I'll tell ya.

As to the rest of your post above, all I'll say is that I find it . . . interesting . . . that you feel you've created such a beneficent persona here on the retirement forum. You might be surprised to learn that not everyone feels quite the same. But that's all I'll say about that.

I am grateful however, that you think enough of me to offer some advice on the spirit I should adopt should I continue posting here. I will take it under advisement. In the spirit of mutual coaching and support, I offer a novel idea for you to consider: Just once, don't give into the temptation of needing to reply to every post. I practice this restraint routinely - someone posts something I feel is silly or baiting, and I let it slide. I've even done it a number of times upon reading some of your posts. Who knows what you might learn if you try something new? You might even try it out right here in this very thread and see how it feels. My money's not on it, but perhaps you'll surprise me.

In that spirit, I'm done with this thread.

To anyone who might click on this, I wish you a happy 4th from the place where it all started - Philadelphia. My husband and I live just a few blocks from Independence Hall. Even after three and half years, we feel a bit of patriotism each time we walk by and can't believe we are lucky enough to live here. I hope this never changes. So, to each and everyone of you, from the heart of liberty, happy holiday:


Philadelphia PA, Philadelphia Freedom : Music by Elton John - YouTube

[mathjak107]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

I guess that was the subway we used when we took our nieces from midtown to the Bronx Zoo. In perhaps the early 80's. It was a little weird - even at noon. Didn't scare me though. But I was happy to take a cab back to the hotel.

I would never rank cities in terms of food. But my favorite today overall is Tokyo. OTOH - I've been to 4 out of the 7 current 3 star Michelin restaurants in New York (some more than once). What does anyone's perception of being a "good food city" matter if you can't afford to/don't care to dine at the best places there? If the only places where one dines are chains or mediocre neighborhood places - it's possible to do that anywhere in the US. Robyn

we went to the bronx zoo yesterday. i love it there , marilyn and i can spend soooooo much time there photographing the animals and never run out of things to photograph.

we may actually publish our work there one day.

thought i would share yesterdays work with ya'all.

[mathjak107]

by the way , about 1 or 2 years ago we had a guy jump off the monorail that runs through the park in to the tigers territory. they mauled the lunatic who later said he wanted to be one with the tigers..

they look so passive and friendly through that thick glass but boy , do not get fooled.


today we are going to try to photograph the surf from the storm at jones beach.

as photographers we find nyc and long island a wealth of places to keep us busy day after day. it has been 9 years now and we still never run out of things to do.

a far cry from the more rural life we tried to live when we bought the house in the pocono mountains. everyday was met with the question mark of now what do we do? that walk along the lake or walk in the woods bored us after the first year.