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Whether the grandparents did or didn't recognize the danger doesn't put them in a position to alter the events and outcome.
And even if they had "recognized" - or sensed - the danger, without concrete proof, something they could take to family court, their hands would have been tied anyway.
In Washington State, a parent or other custodian of the children, can NOT withhold court-ordered visitation just because they "think" the children may be in danger. To do so would have been a violation of a court order and they could have been held in contempt of court.
It is possible, even, that if they had tried to prevent visitation, the caseworker would have been bound to call a deputy to help her get the kids from the grandparents so she could get them to their visitation.
And even if they had "recognized" - or sensed - the danger, without concrete proof, something they could take to family court, their hands would have been tied anyway.
mal·ad·just·ed (ml-jstd) adj.2. Inadequately adjusted to the demands or stresses of daily living.
Applies to Josh more so than the father.
Agreed. My carelessness with terminology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode
I don't see much conscience there for either father or son.
When fruit is intrinsically dependent upon the root doing it's job lovingly and the root had other plans, how rational is it for the world (media and justice system- and US! You and me!) to blame only the fruit for 'what it made of itself'? Even when this fruit came of age, did it ever find sound guidance & social support to aspire to be a loving root himself?
Looking at the history predating this nightmare they appear to be brave souls each with wounds of their own trying to build a life. It took one stand up guy to sit next to him, hear him out, and point out the potholes before all this unraveled. And no one did with our 'every man woman and child for themselves' culture where everyone is too busy minding their own porch? Was he too prideful to ask for help? Or had he been so conditioned to be averse to manipulation that he couldn't hear sound advice when it came? All speculation, but these are plausible conditions this young man was responding to. His own craziness is in a way a reflection/ response of the craziness around him. Doesn't make him right. It also doesn't make those around him right.
Put aside the conclusions of the tale and judge dispassionately the conditions leading up to this nightmare. Were his shoes appreciably any different than single mothers struggling to overcome their own flawed upbringing and carry their kids on their back in a world animating itself hostile to child rearing? When those closest to you, your very family, failed to help and/or exacerbate the underlying problems?
If you'll indulge me an anecdotal story of Henry, a childhood friend, who is influencing my perspective on this case. He was a sweet reticent boy, good natured, who would never share with the rest of us where he lived. Somewhere in the back of the woods but none were unwelcome. He'd just show up in the street kicking a ball waiting for other kids to come out and play.
Unknown to us all he was carrying his family on his back at the age of 9. His mother was battered and his father was a vicious drunk. One night his father was attempting to kill his brother and his mother. He killed his father, which I guess most addicted to headlines decided was an out of control teen ager. The reward for saving his brother was being sent to juvenile detention. I never saw him again, but he was in my prayers then and remains so though I'm old now. When adults are out of control with themselves, children are forced to grow up beyond their years, and take the blame. I guess that's why I've felt morally compelled to be Joanna Appleseed in America.
Don't wonder why Gen X is so silent. Wonder why most can't hear a thing they've said carrying on worshiping themselves at the expense of all else.
The diaries could be her false teenage perceptions.
If her SIL had the ability to recognize her father and brothers problems growing up, and make a decision as an adult to stay away, why was Susan attracted to the controlling, obssesive, unconscionble?
Women who are attracted to a man like Josh have issues of their own and find themselves in unhealthy relationships. My assumption about the parents may be incorrect. However, it would fit the pattern and the reason I'm reluctant to believe them.
The SIL had enough wherewithal to listen to her instincts and avoid them, but not the intellectual capacity to articulate why she was avoiding them. That's the problem with children and teens running into malevolence so far from their experience they lack vocabulary. Often times art therapy is the only means they have to express what they saw. The boys drew pictures of a cave where they believed their mamma's body is, and she'll be found if LE is willing to consider this testimony as credible.
Family dynamics going wrong go back to demented notions of gender used for political shenanigans and religious control that departed from the liberation Jesus offered. Control women, make her a target, target what a man loves, you control the man. Is the definition of fatherhood controlling, obsessive and manipulative? What does a good man, a good husband, and a good father look like to these women?
Equally, what does a good woman, wife, and mother look like to these wounded boys in mens bodies?
My interpretation of what you're saying, the grandparents denied seeing the danger with Josh Powell?
People will deny what they don't want to see for many reasons.
You'll need to explain further.
What I'm implying is that the grandparents are in as much a childish state ignorant to the concept of mental disease/ malevolence/ danger as the SIL. So is much of main stream America living out notions of a gated community peaceful life. Ordinary citizens enjoy a pacifist life, which is great, but their ignorance leaves them targets. It's the scent of blood in the water for human predators of every stripe.
You may see clearer my meaning after watching that documentary. The interview with his parents- the disconnected from reality deer in headlights look. Living out their never never land themselves, they taught Timothy to wander in life, in the wilds of Alaska, as an extension of his never never land. Fruit; he was mauled and eaten by a bear, along with the girlfriend he couldn't defend from his delusions. She bought into his delusions too, and paid the price with her life. Her burial remains had to be extracted from a bears digestive system.
The 911 operator was not responsible for the deaths of these boys. Even if the police had arrived earlier, the outcome would have been the same. However, the 911 operator response does merit review for other cases, when a CPS social worker calls for an emergency police back up.
Agreed, but the bigger picture I'm pointing at...
If the police themselves had delivered these children into Josh's custody, I envision the hatchet would have been skipped over and he'd light that match faster leaving 2 dead kids + dead cops. It was premeditated and no amount of turning play books around on their ears to irrational extremes could ever yield a perfect outcome where these boys and their mother would be alive today. The crimes were festering years before this day occurred and nobody saw it.
Not 2 sets of grandparents. Not the Church these 2 were married in. Not CPS. Not the justice system. Not their neighbors. No one saw evil in plain sight. What consequence is there to myself if I were to manipulate children to do my murdering for me? The philosophically demented PT Barnum legal system protects manipulators and blames those manipulated for all outcomes, but at the same time, religious institutions and educational systems neglect the job of comprehensive self defense training for citizens. This is a deadly combination for citizens at large.
People need to understand that authoritarian instincts (and irrational expectations of those in authority) cannot solve all things. People need to be empowered to defend themselves (not just guns, the 2nd amendment right needs expansion to all aspects of human existence). NRA is rather obtuse that way, and although I 100% defend 2nd amendment right, I do not support them as an org. I consider them corrupt and hypocritical.
What I'm implying is that the grandparents are in as much a childish state ignorant to the concept of mental disease/ malevolence/ danger as the SIL. So is much of main stream America living out notions of a gated community peaceful life. Ordinary citizens enjoy a pacifist life, which is great, but their ignorance leaves them targets. It's the scent of blood in the water for human predators of every stripe.
Absolutely not. The SIL had no disillusions in regard to her own family, so much so, she avoided them like a disease.
These women have a damaged personal history and gravitate to the familiar; control, abuse, and maladjusted individuals.
According to Susan Powells diary she was unhappy, suicidal as a teen, and abused by her parents. The parents deny the accusation, I question their honesty.
No parent is perfect. In my experience healthy family histories tend to grow up together. Mom and Dad are not immortal perfect beings, they do flub up, they sit down and figure it out and hammer out a better way for the sake of the greater good. That's normal, and it's also normal for kids to wake up and realize their parents aren't the Gods they thought they were. It's part of growing, unless that growing is hobbled.
It's not what happens with parents deluded that they're omnipotent. It's not what happens with parents who demand blind obedience negating their job of teaching. It's not what happens with parents seemingly oblivious to their children they hand the job off to passers by, to televisions, to schools, and to neighborhoods. I know less about the latter category, but I'll bet you the department of education hobbled by them could stand to make this phenomena public information calling spades a spade before their kids become statistics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode
Theres no question what a women who sees her husbands moral compass going out of control should do....silence, never confront the situation, and make a plan to leave.
I'm feminist and Catholic in some ways, I confess, I'm attempting to defend my faith from wrongful interpretations (social, political, legal, and religious) running amok in western civilization, and also, the muslim world. It's not just about me. It's for the sake of humanity. I have no desire for dominion over all, but rather, a desire for Gods dominion to prevail over the hearts of men.
FYI what you've posted runs contrary to (all) traditional religious teachings/ norms for thousands of years. It is considered her abandonment of a marriage covenant. Hence their opposition to divorce, and their religious legislative restrictions prohibiting her from self defense. They are through legal and philosophical interpretations nailing motherhood to a cross by demanding half the species be pacifist and the other half be the protector. Until the protector becomes the very wolf they claim to be fending off. Then, for the crime of having zero training as therapist to 'cure' him, she must lie in the bed she made for herself as a long suffering martyr. She 'failed' to manipulate him into sanity, then incredulously turn around blaming womankind for being manipulative. She goaded him into it picking a fight. If it's truly never his fault, is there any purpose for his existence in the home other than having a herd of people orbiting around him? Is that a family? Is marriage a contract being used to shield one side or the other from legal/ social accountability? If Carmella Soprano didn't care she was living off blood money, does it make her innocent?
Without question Aileen Wurnous was a very sick individual, but what made her sick? Not to be confused with a get out of jail free card defense, but with the intention of prevention- looking objectively she was preying upon those who preyed upon her. Who led whom there? Why are women in Texas who defend themselves on death row in a nation that claims all citizens have the right to self defense? Because we are a nation that, in deeds not words, preserves the right to self defense for some, not all. We are a nation divided against itself when responsibility and authority are undermined for the majority of the population.
How can it be that the law, religions (all of them), and social norms, could animate itself to protect predators and blame those victimized by them in lieu of a civilization? This brand of civilization we live out, as it is playing out legally/ socially/ religiously, is not sustainable. We need to clean this up. We need to recognize cannibals of civilization for what they are beyond all race, creed, gender, age, blah blah distinctions. Cannibals are not a protected class of individuals in the Bible. Jim Jones had no business having protection under freedom of religion SCOTUS interpretations.
I know this is all going to seem off point from my own thread but it's like trying to explain to enron employees what I see from a birdseye view. People have horse blinders on so tight they can't see what monsters they are feeding in the bigger picture.
No parent is perfect. In my experience healthy family histories tend to grow up together. Mom and Dad are not immortal perfect beings,
FYI what you've posted runs contrary to (all) traditional religious teachings/ norms for thousands of years. It is considered her abandonment of a marriage covenant.
Some are old school with old school upbringings, uneducated about what constitutes abuse. For others inadvertant, or a parent with mental health problems, and then theres deliberate.
Oh.... I have no doubt it goes against religious teachings and its hypocrisy.
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