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We can also agree that its going to take some time (probably 10 years minimum) for any major transportation to get in place. Which is cool with me considering that the uptick in traffic is generating more tax revenue for the county and, in this case, more restaurants and entertainment options. More transportation options will come eventually just like it has come to Tyson's but in that vein development will have to come and be established before any significant metro options come into play.
Which in turn is spent to keep up with the infrastructure that is in place (i.e. worn out roads, increase bus routes, more police officers, etc.). Yes you may gain some revenue even with the extra that you spend, but if you want to maximize your spending, which should the goal of any organization, then better planning needs to be done. Waiting for money to be generated to address infrastructure issues, that you know already exist and will be even worse, is backwards and is a sign of poor leadership. Anybody that has spent anytime doing project management understand that the key to any project's success is not to get rid of risks because that's impossible, but it is to mitigate risks.
This county has taken this strategy for far too long and it comes at the expense of local resident's quality of life. For every person like you UrbanScholar, there will be someone that does not like the extra traffic, that sees a drop in the quality of life (more time to get to and from places, increase foot traffic near their homes, potential of increase in crime based on more people being near there) and wants immediate change. I always say that any county that has reasonable plans, should always take a conservative approach to building development. The last thing you want to do is to give a perception that you do not care about taxpayers and unfortunately when you do projects in this manner, that is what people will assume.
What I would be curious is what will the county do in the meantime of having a metro or something of that sorts. Are they going to add another route to get to NH? Are they going to add more bus routes? Are they going to use satellite parking lots? That is something that I think is important.
You are preaching to the choir in terms of believing that metro, PG, and the state should be proactive in developing better transportation options for the area surrounding NH. If for nothing else for the reason that, "if you build it they will come". Unfortunately that has not been the reality for how they have planned in the past. I know that they are in the initial stages of reconfiguring 210 but based on the timeline to complete the first overpass that will take 15 years to complete. OH will be finished in 2015 but there was a 10 year gap between phase 1 and phase 2(smh). Wilson Bridge had been on the books for a couple of decades before they broke ground on it. So even if there is a possibility of expansion it takes time for public projects to come into fruition. I also agree that a streetcar system would be ideal but believe that would need to be a public/private partnership for that to happen anytime soon. That type of project would only cost about 200M if you plan a run from branch or southern Avenue to NH but again red tape could delay it. Look to DC and the Arlington/alexandria projects for examples of getting a streetcar system off the ground
You are preaching to the choir in terms of believing that metro, PG, and the state should be proactive in developing better transportation options for the area surrounding NH. If for nothing else for the reason that, "if you build it they will come". Unfortunately that has not been the reality for how they have planned in the past. I know that they are in the initial stages of reconfiguring 210 but based on the timeline to complete the first overpass that will take 15 years to complete. OH will be finished in 2015 but there was a 10 year gap between phase 1 and phase 2(smh). Wilson Bridge had been on the books for a couple of decades before they broke ground on it. So even if there is a possibility of expansion it takes time for public projects to come into fruition. I also agree that a streetcar system would be ideal but believe that would need to be a public/private partnership for that to happen anytime soon. That type of project would only cost about 200M if you plan a run from branch or southern Avenue to NH but again red tape could delay it. Look to DC and the Arlington/alexandria projects for examples of getting a streetcar system off the ground
I agree that road projects take a lot longer to complete than building projects. It's a lot easier and cheaper to build a mall than it is to build a new interchange. And PGC is not alone when it comes to transportation planning. NOVA is rife with bad road design and growth without the thought of how to move people around efficiently. The Dulles Corridor (Tysons, Reston, Sterling, Ashburn) existed decades before the Silver Line broke ground. The Mixing Bowl down south to Dumfries, well, that's FUBAR.
No state will invest too heavily in roads before there is an approved project that will soon break ground. Not when so many other road projects take priority and cash flow. Ideally, every state would have billions in road funds just sitting around waiting for the next big development to start. But that's just not the case. Nor do I expect it to be in the future. In this case supply will always follow demand. ANd for projects like road systems that take years to plan and fund, unfortunately, the time is measured in years and sometimes decades.
Usually, when developers fund a project, then extra funding is made for roads to help speed the timeline along. But without the project and extra revenue, there's no need to make capacity expansion a top priority. We forget, Maryland includes a lot more people and roads than just the DC metro area. Frederick, MD is also growing. There are huge road projects around Baltimore as well.
Another way to speed up road projects is to increase taxes. But we don't like taxes.
I agree that road projects take a lot longer to complete than building projects. It's a lot easier and cheaper to build a mall than it is to build a new interchange. And PGC is not alone when it comes to transportation planning. NOVA is rife with bad road design and growth without the thought of how to move people around efficiently. The Dulles Corridor (Tysons, Reston, Sterling, Ashburn) existed decades before the Silver Line broke ground. The Mixing Bowl down south to Dumfries, well, that's FUBAR.
No state will invest too heavily in roads before there is an approved project that will soon break ground. Not when so many other road projects take priority and cash flow. Ideally, every state would have billions in road funds just sitting around waiting for the next big development to start. But that's just not the case. Nor do I expect it to be in the future. In this case supply will always follow demand. ANd for projects like road systems that take years to plan and fund, unfortunately, the time is measured in years and sometimes decades.
Usually, when developers fund a project, then extra funding is made for roads to help speed the timeline along. But without the project and extra revenue, there's no need to make capacity expansion a top priority. We forget, Maryland includes a lot more people and roads than just the DC metro area. Frederick, MD is also growing. There are huge road projects around Baltimore as well.
Another way to speed up road projects is to increase taxes. But we don't like taxes.
There is no comparison between PG and NoVA. NoVA although has their mistakes in planning out projects, already have more infrastructure in place than PG. When there wasn't metro stations, there were toll roads. When there wasn't HOT lanes, there were HOV lanes. The thing about NoVA is they certainly can do things better, but PG and for that matter Charles County are way, way behind on infrastructure. The planning has not been perfect, but it's been better. Incompetent leadership has hurt southern MD a great deal.
NoVA was much more proactive in creating transit-oriented development. Places like Arlington, Falls Church, Merrifield, and Vienna got built up around metro station so there was available housing stock that did not require driving. PG is just getting to that. As long as people have money, there are options to circumvent the traffic in NoVA which at least makes the situation more palatable. In PG and Charles County, there has been decades of aimless development with no real game plan. Both places of focused on building these large housing developments that increase sprawl but they never addressed roads, or public transportation needs.
And not to mention that there are a lot of people who live in NoVA that can still work in NoVA, but in PG and Charles County that aren't as many white collar jobs so the need for infrastructure is even more crucial.
Which in turn is spent to keep up with the infrastructure that is in place (i.e. worn out roads, increase bus routes, more police officers, etc.). Yes you may gain some revenue even with the extra that you spend, but if you want to maximize your spending, which should the goal of any organization, then better planning needs to be done. Waiting for money to be generated to address infrastructure issues, that you know already exist and will be even worse, is backwards and is a sign of poor leadership. Anybody that has spent anytime doing project management understand that the key to any project's success is not to get rid of risks because that's impossible, but it is to mitigate risks.
This county has taken this strategy for far too long and it comes at the expense of local resident's quality of life. For every person like you UrbanScholar, there will be someone that does not like the extra traffic, that sees a drop in the quality of life (more time to get to and from places, increase foot traffic near their homes, potential of increase in crime based on more people being near there) and wants immediate change. I always say that any county that has reasonable plans, should always take a conservative approach to building development. The last thing you want to do is to give a perception that you do not care about taxpayers and unfortunately when you do projects in this manner, that is what people will assume.
What I would be curious is what will the county do in the meantime of having a metro or something of that sorts. Are they going to add another route to get to NH? Are they going to add more bus routes? Are they going to use satellite parking lots? That is something that I think is important.
Well in the case of MGM the bill and subsequent agreement for that licenses call for a separate bucket of money (e.g. taxes from the operator) to be provide to support infrastructure like road maintenance/improvement and law enforcement for the 5 mile radius surrounding the casino. The hope is that the state and the county will add to that bucket and not rely on it as their only source for infrastructure improvement. As for waiting for the money, I agree that is bad leadership but what jurisdiction do you know that hasn't waited. 66 in NOVA is way overdue, 270 in Montgomery will make you suicidal, 210 is bad and the same goes for roadways in DC. All of them have waited until it has reached critical mass to make improvements so what PGC has done is in line with other metro area jurisdictions.
I know that most don't share my opinion about sacrificing quality of life for improved amenities but that's okay. Everyone has a right to there own opinion. My position is that I have seen the other extreme of living/growing up in a predominately minority, quasi-urban community and not having any businesses of merit opening up in 30+ years and having to go outside the community for everything. I have seen how that has made that community undesirable to a point that the residents consist primarily of low-income renters and fixed income elderly because the coveted demo does not want to move into a neighborhood that doesn't at least have certain amenities above the basics (e.g. white cloth/fine dining, shopping, entertainment options, decent grocery stores, etc). If given a choice between no traffic and no improved amenities or traffic with improved amenities I will take the traffic. Would I like better mass transit options? Absolutely and will continue to vocalize that as well.
I think the quickest solution would be adding more bus routes and lobbying to have the metro hours extended for the green line at Branch Ave and the Yellow/Blue line in Alexandria. The latter could be paid for by MGM similar to what they do during baseball season. The county council in their infinite wisdom (being sarcastic) stated during their approval hearing that they would not expend additional funds to support the infrastructure for the MGM project. Although I agree that it should not fall completely on their shoulders, I do believe that they or the state will be doing more than nothing to make sure that the project is a success. Given that the state lost about 9,000 jobs last month and are in last place when it comes to job retention/creation, they would want to make sure that potential job centers, no matter the industry, feel that an area is viable, safe and ripe for business. As we discussed before, most companies don't want to have to invest significantly in infrastructure improvements to set up shop somewhere. Especially in the DC metro where there is a glut of office inventory and jurisdictions willing to make changes to draw business (a good example of this would be Crystal City).
There is no comparison between PG and NoVA. NoVA although has their mistakes in planning out projects, already have more infrastructure in place than PG. When there wasn't metro stations, there were toll roads. When there wasn't HOT lanes, there were HOV lanes. The thing about NoVA is they certainly can do things better, but PG and for that matter Charles County are way, way behind on infrastructure. The planning has not been perfect, but it's been better. Incompetent leadership has hurt southern MD a great deal.
NoVA was much more proactive in creating transit-oriented development. Places like Arlington, Falls Church, Merrifield, and Vienna got built up around metro station so there was available housing stock that did not require driving. PG is just getting to that. As long as people have money, there are options to circumvent the traffic in NoVA which at least makes the situation more palatable. In PG and Charles County, there has been decades of aimless development with no real game plan. Both places of focused on building these large housing developments that increase sprawl but they never addressed roads, or public transportation needs.
And not to mention that there are a lot of people who live in NoVA that can still work in NoVA, but in PG and Charles County that aren't as many white collar jobs so the need for infrastructure is even more crucial.
One thing to remember about PG/Charles County is that the vision for those areas where vastly different from NOVA when the latter decided to move towards more commercialization. Their move toward business was help by state legislation that was more business friendly than MD. Also remember that at that time, late 60s/early 70s, Southern PG and Charles were both mostly rural tier/farm land. At that time they were not budging from that status. It really wasn't until the late 80's to mid-90s (after seeing NOVA's success) that either jurisdiction sought a more balanced portfolio and even then PG leadership's corruption issues stumped the growth of the county in that regard. That said, PG/Charles County are behind but I think you will see a significant push over the next 10 years since they, especially PG, are the most affordable areas left in the DMV. That puts them in a prime position to be the next big thing and I don't see them passing on that opportunity. At least not under the current County Executive.
As for waiting for the money, I agree that is bad leadership but what jurisdiction do you know that hasn't waited. 66 in NOVA is way overdue, 270 in Montgomery will make you suicidal, 210 is bad and the same goes for roadways in DC. All of them have waited until it has reached critical mass to make improvements so what PGC has done is in line with other metro area jurisdictions.
I agree. If Nova is the epitome of great leadership and planning, then Nova wouldn't be notorious for the worst traffic in the Washington region. To be honest, there's no solution to waiting for the money unless you significantly raise taxes, which most people are opposed to. "We want awesome planning and perfect timing, but we don't want to pay for it." Well, in that case, patience will be a much needed virtue had by all.
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I know that most don't share my opinion about sacrificing quality of life for improved amenities but that's okay. Everyone has a right to there own opinion. My position is that I have seen the other extreme of living/growing up in a predominately minority, quasi-urban community and not having any businesses of merit opening up in 30+ years and having to go outside the community for everything. I have seen how that has made that community undesirable to a point that the residents consist primarily of low-income renters and fixed income elderly because the coveted demo does not want to move into a neighborhood that doesn't at least have certain amenities above the basics (e.g. white cloth/fine dining, shopping, entertainment options, decent grocery stores, etc). If given a choice between no traffic and no improved amenities or traffic with improved amenities I will take the traffic.
I've repeatedly stated this case when noting how desirable the more congested areas are despite their congested roadways. If people feel that dealing with traffic is worth living somewhere, it won't matter. If those people in Oxon Hill feel that traffic is too much, they may move, but others who don't mind the traffic if they can be next to NH and Old Town will move in. I have heard a lot of people applaud Nova for its jobs and amenities despite congestion, but then point fingers at Maryland for its "lack of planning." As I said before, I like where we are now. At least we have the opportunity to get it right before congestion gets like Nova.
I'll admit, as I have before, that Konterra and Westphalia aren't the best ideas at this time without mass transit options. It remains to be seen how those developments are handled as far as keeping traffic congestion down. I don't have my hopes up.
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As we discussed before, most companies don't want to have to invest significantly in infrastructure improvements to set up shop somewhere. Especially in the DC metro where there is a glut of office inventory and jurisdictions willing to make changes to draw business (a good example of this would be Crystal City).
That puts them in a prime position to be the next big thing and I don't see them passing on that opportunity. At least not under the current County Executive.
And with the new smart-growth initiatives including the Purple Line, I hope PGC can do it better than Nova. While we've blown a few opportunities (Westphalia, Konterra) we can still get it right given the number of metro/marc/future purple line stations. I think it can be done and I think this is the administration that can get it done. We'll see. Hope I'm not wrong.
National Harbor is not a lost cause. I think that the solution is there. It will just take time. Tyson's Corner was horrible. Even with no traffic the road layout was confusing. I've had to make a number of u-turns when visiting Tyson's Corner.
Well in the case of MGM the bill and subsequent agreement for that licenses call for a separate bucket of money (e.g. taxes from the operator) to be provide to support infrastructure like road maintenance/improvement and law enforcement for the 5 mile radius surrounding the casino. The hope is that the state and the county will add to that bucket and not rely on it as their only source for infrastructure improvement. As for waiting for the money, I agree that is bad leadership but what jurisdiction do you know that hasn't waited. 66 in NOVA is way overdue, 270 in Montgomery will make you suicidal, 210 is bad and the same goes for roadways in DC. All of them have waited until it has reached critical mass to make improvements so what PGC has done is in line with other metro area jurisdictions.
I know that most don't share my opinion about sacrificing quality of life for improved amenities but that's okay. Everyone has a right to there own opinion. My position is that I have seen the other extreme of living/growing up in a predominately minority, quasi-urban community and not having any businesses of merit opening up in 30+ years and having to go outside the community for everything. I have seen how that has made that community undesirable to a point that the residents consist primarily of low-income renters and fixed income elderly because the coveted demo does not want to move into a neighborhood that doesn't at least have certain amenities above the basics (e.g. white cloth/fine dining, shopping, entertainment options, decent grocery stores, etc). If given a choice between no traffic and no improved amenities or traffic with improved amenities I will take the traffic. Would I like better mass transit options? Absolutely and will continue to vocalize that as well.
I think the quickest solution would be adding more bus routes and lobbying to have the metro hours extended for the green line at Branch Ave and the Yellow/Blue line in Alexandria. The latter could be paid for by MGM similar to what they do during baseball season. The county council in their infinite wisdom (being sarcastic) stated during their approval hearing that they would not expend additional funds to support the infrastructure for the MGM project. Although I agree that it should not fall completely on their shoulders, I do believe that they or the state will be doing more than nothing to make sure that the project is a success. Given that the state lost about 9,000 jobs last month and are in last place when it comes to job retention/creation, they would want to make sure that potential job centers, no matter the industry, feel that an area is viable, safe and ripe for business. As we discussed before, most companies don't want to have to invest significantly in infrastructure improvements to set up shop somewhere. Especially in the DC metro where there is a glut of office inventory and jurisdictions willing to make changes to draw business (a good example of this would be Crystal City).
You make some good points. I would say the state deserves a lot of blame. They are responsible for the condition of 210. I think 210 has reached critical mass at least 10 years ago. The problem now is when you start developing near that road, you are only making the issue worse. There are things that could have been done to keep the problems down.
Let's be honest, both you and I know that 210 funding has been a struggle for a while now. It doesn't seem realistic to expect it to be ready in the next 3 to 4 years, where the heaviest of development is expected. The problem I see is no one is thinking outside the box here. How hard would it be to create bus lanes on 210 to encourage less people to drive on it. A majority of the people who drive on 210 are going in the same direction and places like Accokeek and Fort Washington already have the commuter lots to support such an effort. The cost of such a project would be small in comparison to the amount the state is trying to gather for 210. Things like that seem to be missing in the thinking.
I understand your thinking about traffic though. I think development is good when done smartly. I haven't seen or heard any plans that they at least have in place for the roads around NH once they do get the money and that's what doesn't make sense.
I agree. If Nova is the epitome of great leadership and planning, then Nova wouldn't be notorious for the worst traffic in the Washington region. To be honest, there's no solution to waiting for the money unless you significantly raise taxes, which most people are opposed to. "We want awesome planning and perfect timing, but we don't want to pay for it." Well, in that case, patience will be a much needed virtue had by all.
That's subjective. One thing most of MD doesn't have to deal with is a combination of out of town traffic on 95 and local traffic for employees during peak hours, where the largest job center like Fort Belvoir, Alexandria or Arlington are main hubs for both. A good portion of MD has just one to contend with. There also aren't nearly the amount of jobs off the main corridor of 95 in MD that goes through PG so naturally the traffic isn't going to be as bad, in that part. And there aren't too many out of towners that will have to traverse through Montgomery County to go south so the issues between the two states are very different. It's really ridiculous to continue to compare the two states. Traffic usually is much more extreme during summer months, but both states are impacted by summer travel. 301 has traffic issues just as much as 95 since they are two major routes going south. Both have their own set of issues and have had their share of mistakes. Those are things that are difficult for any state to account for.
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
I've repeatedly stated this case when noting how desirable the more congested areas are despite their congested roadways. If people feel that dealing with traffic is worth living somewhere, it won't matter. If those people in Oxon Hill feel that traffic is too much, they may move, but others who don't mind the traffic if they can be next to NH and Old Town will move in. I have heard a lot of people applaud Nova for its jobs and amenities despite congestion, but then point fingers at Maryland for its "lack of planning." As I said before, I like where we are now. At least we have the opportunity to get it right before congestion gets like Nova.
I'll admit, as I have before, that Konterra and Westphalia aren't the best ideas at this time without mass transit options. It remains to be seen how those developments are handled as far as keeping traffic congestion down. I don't have my hopes up.
It's said about Maryland because it's true that the planning in MD is bad. Waldorf is the best example of this. There are nearly 70,000 people living there and there isn't a single train or light rail that takes you directly to the city from there. There isn't even a HOV lane. Waldorf has had the retail and development there for decades, it just never has had a clear vision for how the town would grow and now they have no room to build a solution on the main corridor.
NH is much earlier in the stage and at least with the way it's being developed, there are certain things already in place like a designated site to add a metro and a dedicated space on the bridge to build it across the water. The problem is they haven't thought about how the development would impact points south of there. That isn't a tax issue, per say, as much as it's about the state not seeing it as a real priority.
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