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You asked where does this "myth" of subsidies for oil come from:
I listed a credible source, now you want to discredit it with an industry article that is saying essentially not as much subsidies as reported.
What industry besides oil gets things like ethanol credits and oil and gas royalty reliefs? Might also want to look at who wrote that post you referenced:
Hardly a news article - it was written by an oil services company. They did not say they are not getting subsidies they are complaining about being criticized the most for subsidies. From the "post";
EVs get subsidies in the form of tax credits among other things. I really don't care if oil and gas getting subsidies also because it helps US have oil independence but dispute those that falsely claim they are not. Even the industry rep does not agree with you, hardly BS.
BTW - I own both EV and ICE vehicles, I am NOT against having ICE vehicles. I drive an EV because I like it.
You listed no credible source. You listed an EV hack source. A subsidy is a gift from the government to promote a specific industry. Oil industries get typical tax breaks any mining company would get.
It costs automakers less to build the same ICE vehicle as an EV. There is no transmission or engine among other things. That means fewer workers required to build the vehicle, smaller buildings to maintain and store parts, etc.
At least for me, we are just now beginning to get to the point where EVs are both affordable and practical for mass market use.
I live in one small city and work in another. My commute is 19 miles each way. Count any sort of personal driving and I'm up to 50 mi./day most days. The nearest metro is about a hundred miles away and I do that kind of a trip once or twice a month, so I'd need something with a ~200 mi. range to get to the next real metro and back without stopping to charge along the way. I also prefer an CUV/SUV, something with a lift gate, rather than a car with a trunk. A weekend hiking trip to Asheville and back would be tough. Price is a concern. Here in the South, you'd really need to plan out where you can charge ahead of time, or rent an ICE vehicle for the trip.
I have a 2015 Cherokee with about 90k on it that I use the hell out of. I used a tow behind U-Haul trailer a couple weeks ago. I'm frequently hauling recyclables. Big trips to Sam's and Costco. Hiking, kayaking, and occasional light offroading to do those things. I've put 34k miles on the car since last April. I'll often end up with water shoes, swim trunks, life jacket, and maybe an inner tube in the cargo area in the summer. I wouldn't want to use an expensive new EV in this fashion.
I could live with a Kona EV. Maybe a Bolt. A Model 3 would be fun. The rest of them are expensive also-rans with insufficient range IMO.
If you need over two hundred miles range then you've also got the Kia Soul EV (243 miles), Nissan Leaf Plus (226), and Kia Niro (239).
You've also got the Audi e-tron (that's pushing it though at 204 miles), Jaguar I-Pace (234), Porsche Taycan (~220), Model X (up to 325), and Model S (up to 370), but those are really expensive.
If you can hold on to the Cherokee for another year or two, your options for 200+ miles range will probably get a lot wider with the addition of the Volkswagen hatchback and CUV, Volvo XC40, Polestar 2, Model Y, Rivian SUV (well, maybe a bit longer who knows if they'll make their timeline), Ford CUV and Nissan CUV. These and several others have targeted releases for 2020 or 2021 though who knows how many of them will actually make those dates. Probably most.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-27-2019 at 04:17 PM..
It's not the assembly of the electric motor that's the driver in cost. It's the materials themselves.
Right, a lot of that is the cost of the battery. Energy density per kilogram has increased fairly rapidly and is continuing to do so and generally that works out to costs per unit of energy capacity going down since there would be less material necessary for the same capacity (that and advancements and streamlining of manufacture). Claims have been made that VW is buying batteries at less than $100 per kWh and Tesla said they'd reach that threshold at the end of 2018 whereas in 2010, the market rate was about $1000 per kWh. $100 per kWh is incidentally the estimated point where EVs become price competitive with ICE vehicles, though that's pack cost and it's not known if VW or Tesla are referring to cell cost or pack cost. That being said, 2010 to 2019 is a pretty short amount of time to even come close to going down an order of magnitude in costs.
Obviously, that rate is not going to linearly keep going down at the same pace, because it'd be ridiculous for automakers to be paid 800 dollars per kWh to receive batteries a decade from now, but chances are the cost per capacity is going to keep dipping down for at least the short term.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-27-2019 at 04:15 PM..
Just about every news article regarding the future of transportation in the world seems to be EV and autonomous ways to get around while the ICE will slowly go away into extinction.
But why?
Why is the government pushing this agenda so severely? They say it’s to help fight climate change and reduce pollution levels, but I think the government will always find ways to ban something, and eventually ban EV because once they become mainstream, the cause of pollution and or the strain on natural resources will then be blamed on the huge increases on battery production, and the disposal of old batteries compared to a basic 12 volt battery in a ICE today.
Almost forgot to mention the extreme strain on the power grid systems once EV will become a norm. The long charging times and the expense it will have on consumers will be counter intuitive. I can fill up a tank of gas in my car in a few minutes or less, while having to charge an EV can take hours. It’s not realistic for many people in such a busy fast paced world we live in today.
Onto autonomous vehicles. The heavy push by automakers, including the government leads me to believe that they want to force the public out of vehicle ownership. I can see the future being strictly leased based, where automakers will charge a big rate in order for the public to be able to use an autonomous car/truck/cuv.
No longer will we be able to have control over what we buy, rather, the government and auto manufacturers will cry “it’s all about safety, and saving lives” in order to pass in their agenda on revoking ownership of automobiles because humans are inherently flawed and that somehow a computer will be able to drive better than humans. Well the argument is, what happens when those computers malfunction and or have problems? The complexity of it all will make EV combined with autonomous vehicles more prone to break downs and very expensive to fix.
No more fun, no more ownership, as vehicle transportation will be seen as a luxury that only the wealthy can afford.
What do you say? Is there something shady going on behind close doors amongst our Governments and Automakers?
Save $. Eliminate surplus employees. Auto-driven vehicles is a disruptive change. Like the personal modet T did away with horses.
Maybe the answer should have been, "It did, it just sucks". Smart pulled out of the U.S.A., didn't it? But the price point ($22K before Fed subsidy) sure is tasty. For $15K (out of pocket), this thing would pretty much pay for itself in eight or ten years of driving for me, it would be a "no brainer", my IC van would sit unused 80 or 90% of the time. If it were still available, I'd look real hard at it right now.
And if the Electric Kia Soul could attain this price point, the line for them would go around the country.
Electrification of a relatively compact but passenger/cargo-oriented runabout sounds like a good business proposition... but is of limited interest to me personally. I’m looking to electrification as a way to reduce vehicle size and mass to the minimum, essentially wrapping it around the driver. With a small battery suited only to short range, everything else can be small and light. The structure of the vehicle gets lighter and smaller, so now the brakes can be smaller too. Power-steering is no longer necessary… a manual rack is fine. If the vehicle is a roadster (open cockpit), a climate-control system is obviated (wear a helmet!). And so forth. Electrification – namely, a light motor and lack of support systems such as ignition, intake, exhaust, fuel-flow, cooling etc. – results in a light, simple, reliable and inexpensive vehicle.
You listed no credible source. You listed an EV hack source.
Try again, did you even look at the site? https://www.thebalance.com/governmen...rt-etc-3305788 The article was on US Fiscal Policy - all government subsidies, oil & gas is just one of those listed. The title is "US Economy Fiscal Policy Government Subsidies (Farm, Oil, Export, Etc) - What Are the Major Federal Government Subsidies?"
https://www.thebalance.com - The Balance - Make Money Personal - NOT an EV hack site because it is not an EV site at all, it is an financial site with discussions of US Policy. Their stated purpose:
Quote:
Master every aspect of your financial life with expert advice and how-to guides on topics ranging from investing and debt management to finding a new job.
My source was neutral, unlike your link that was an Industry posting and did not even agree with your position. You are just proving how uninformed you are.
Last edited by ddeemo; 09-27-2019 at 06:03 PM..
Reason: correct tile to title
Try again, did you even look at the site? https://www.thebalance.com/governmen...rt-etc-3305788 The article was on US Fiscal Policy - all government subsidies, oil & gas is just one of those listed. The title is "US Economy Fiscal Policy Government Subsidies (Farm, Oil, Export, Etc) - What Are the Major Federal Government Subsidies?"
https://www.thebalance.com - The Balance - Make Money Personal - NOT an EV hack site because it is not an EV site at all, it is an financial site with discussions of US Policy. Their stated purpose:
My source was neutral, unlike your link that was an Industry posting and did not even agree with your position. You are just proving how uninformed you are.
Call it what you want, but it’s click bait for EV enthusiast. The oil and gas industry isn’t any more of a competitor to EVs than an ICE manufacturer is to the public utility providing electricity to EV’s.
If you wanted an apples to apples approach, buying a gas car gets you no subsidies while buying an EV is heavily dependent on subsidies. A more appropriate comparison of oil companies would be to public utilities which are by nature public monopolies and thus even more dependent on government support.
Driving a gas car doesn’t make you independent of an electric utility and driving an EV doesn’t make you independent of the oil industry, so stop with the all the “ oil vs. EV’s” nonsense because the two are not competitors to each other in any way. That’s just propaganda spewed by ignorant EV enthusiast who don’t know anything.
Call it what you want, but it’s click bait for EV enthusiast. The oil and gas industry isn’t any more of a competitor to EVs than an ICE manufacturer is to the public utility providing electricity to EV’s.
If you wanted an apples to apples approach, buying a gas car gets you no subsidies while buying an EV is heavily dependent on subsidies. A more appropriate comparison of oil companies would be to public utilities which are by nature public monopolies and thus even more dependent on government support.
Driving a gas car doesn’t make you independent of an electric utility and driving an EV doesn’t make you independent of the oil industry, so stop with the all the “ oil vs. EV’s” nonsense because the two are not competitors to each other in any way. That’s just propaganda spewed by ignorant EV enthusiast who don’t know anything.
So you try to change the argument again when proven wrong - this is like the 3rd or 4th time you have done so. I never compared oil to EVs. Then you resort to name calling. If anyone is spewing propaganda it is you. You are just proving that you don't have a clue.
Last edited by ddeemo; 09-27-2019 at 10:05 PM..
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