CA is the 5th worst state in getting value for your money (Redding: condos, high crime)
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What I think is: a person can indeed always strive to "better" themselves relative to any standard they choose to use. But that, no matter how hard they strive, they might well not be able to achieve their goals. And that a re-examination of their goals might be valuable if they want to find fulfillment in life.
And, by the way, I do not think that things have gotten tougher in any real comparison of history. No. Pilgrims and wagon trains come to mind. As do slaves and serfs working fields for the nobility of the Dark Ages. Etc.
Yes those says were tougher, but so what? No one would dare go back to that. The point is that in terms of economic disparity we are closer to the robber baron days then the happy go lucky golden age you and your baby boomers went through. To be able to not have to go to college and get into debt and just go to work after high school with a wage what relatively met the COL would be great now. Sure it was never a paradise but people had second chances. What ever we had is now slowly eroding.
I remember that radio talk show blowhard Sean Hannity once saying his grandfather was a miner during the turn of the just century and he didn't need social security. He was a tough American and didn't whine. Well it didn't occur to him that maybe his grandfather was exploited? That the lack of those things he sneers at are what people fought for future generations to have?
$100,000 is not an average wage, it's quite a healthy salary. An "average wage" in California is closer to 55-60k about the same 20 years ago. During that time housing costs (including rent) have doubled and tripled. I'm sorry you don't get that. As far as your experiences "a few years ago" take a look at housing increases just in the past 12 months in some areas they have gone up over 30% in a year.
It disturbs me that you seem to think that people who want to discuss this very real problem are somehow whining or they are not as clever or hardworking as you and your daughter. I personally know plenty of people who have tried to do everything right; work hard, go to college, save money, etc. What they were not expecting was that they would be earning what their parents did 20 years ago but paying 3 times as much for rent or mortgage payments, and at the same time paying off tens of thousand in student loans. . Sorry you can't see the impact that is having on real people's lives.
I sort of got spanked by mutt for my initial response to you and thought that maybe I had over reacted, but in reading your latest post I think I was right on point.
First, my daughter didn't finish college. She has no student loan debt. She started out as a receptionist at a company. Then, they needed someone to enter data in the Payroll Dept, and she took that job. Then she learned that if she got certified, she would be more in demand as a payroll assistant. Then she became a payroll assistant and got a raise. When she had enough experience as a payroll assistant, she studied and got the next level of certification, to be a professional payroll person (forget the title). Then she got a job at that level, and a raise. Then a supervisor job came up in Monterey, which meant she'd have to relocate away from Silicon Valley, in order to get supervisor experience.
Then, she learned about new payroll software programs, and took classes on how they work and how to implement them. Then she got a job as a payroll software specialist, and got a job in Walnut Creek, and relocated again. Then she had enough experience to become a payroll systems analyst, and landed a job at UC Berkeley helping to implement a university-wide new payroll system.
At ever step of the way, she got all the training she could get, and kept her certifications fresh by attending payroll conferences every year.
Did she love payroll? Nope. Her dream is to own a boutique in Santa Cruz, and she hopes to be able to do that one day, but at minimum, she wants to retire in Santa Cruz, and I have no doubt she will achieve that goal. Because she will do what it takes.
She did all of the above (including buying two homes) without a cent of help from her parents. And it took her about 15 years, to get to where she is now. Perhaps if she'd had a degree, she could have accomplished what she did earlier, and I'm sure she would have found a way to pay off her student loans in that time frame. She's obviously very good with money.
As far as her salary being higher than average - she's single. There's no reason a couple can't do all of the above and more.
But, hey, do you want me to say you're right? That life is hopeless, so you shouldn't even try to achieve more?
Okay. Life is hopeless and you shouldn't even try to do more. Or do things differently, as Tulemutt suggested. Heck, you might as well just walk into the ocean and never come back. Because there are no options at all.
There. Now you can righteously stay right where you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
2) In spite of the sad vanishment of the dream, personal fulfillment outside the box is always available.
Amen.
And I couldn't rep you for being so nice in your NoMoreSnowForMe life story :-) Thank you. You pretty much nailed it. I felt sorry for myself for 8 years, and couldn't see a way out, because I thought I had to stay in the SF Bay Area, and in order to do so, I had to stay at a job I hated.
And then I started thinking outside the box, with the help of a group I started attending - on depression, believe it or not. We had a wonderful group leader (licensed social worker) who gave us a bunch of tools and ways to change our thinking, and encouraged us to start thinking of different options, and to clarify what we wanted, and how to achieve them in a different way, etc.
Once I started thinking outside of my box, options started presenting themselves. I'm not religious - am agnostic - but I love the serenity prayer. And no, I'm not in a 12 step group, either. But, it's all about accepting what you can't change, but changing what you can. Works for me.
You're right, I no longer own real estate. But, honestly, owning real estate is expensive and a lot of work. Sure, your "rent" stays the same, and is usually cheaper than renting, but fixing everything is on you. The landscaping is on you. The fence is on you. The roof is on you. The refrigerator, the carpet, on and on and on.
I couldn't afford to pay rent in the SF Bay Area, and my daughter is still not talking to me for moving so far away, but she didn't want me moving in with her either lol! And frankly, I wouldn't want to live with her, either. So, I had to take care of me.
And you're right, Redding is pretty nice, but too hot. And I do love Crescent City. I jokingly call this Del Norte Pole County, as my friends think I've moved to the other end of the world. But, I rarely saw them anyway. We Skype and talk on the phone.
But, there I was in Redding hating the weather, and so I started looking for places with cool year-round weather, still in CA, that I could afford and "discovered" Crescent City way up here. So, I got on waiting lists for senior subsidized housing in CC, and again, waited and saved money for moving. Took 6 months. And what a blessing in disguise going to Redding was. I am so glad I moved there and got a kick in the butt to keep looking for my perfect place. I have the ocean and the woods here, which are my favorite places in all the world to be.
I'm blabbing too much. The point is, yes, life can still be good, but sometimes it takes thinking outside your box.
Last edited by NoMoreSnowForMe; 02-19-2015 at 12:20 PM..
Yes those says were tougher, but so what? No one would dare go back to that. The point is that in terms of economic disparity we are closer to the robber baron days then the happy go lucky golden age you and your baby boomers went through. To be able to not have to go to college and get into debt and just go to work after high school with a wage what relatively met the COL would be great now. Sure it was never a paradise but people had second chances. What ever we had is now slowly eroding.
I remember that radio talk show blowhard Sean Hannity once saying his grandfather was a miner during the turn of the just century and he didn't need social security. He was a tough American and didn't whine. Well it didn't occur to him that maybe his grandfather was exploited? That the lack of those things he sneers at are what people fought for future generations to have?
So what? You say? So everything! The life you are simultaneously championing and criticizing was an anomaly in the history of civilization, that's what. You want to believe it is righteous, knock yourself out. I call it an illusion.
You want to simultaneously benchmark the middle class dream and criticize the "boomers" for having it when most folks today find it slipping away. Whatever. You're pretty sure baby boomers' lives were all "happy go lucky", eh? Whatever.
Whatever you think of baby boomers and their dream lives, it didn't exist before them, and it's disappearing back again. Yep.
But you think you're going to "vote" it back, eh? Good luck man. Really.
Location: West Los Angeles and Rancho Palos Verdes
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Why is quality of life in CA on the decline? Hmm...if only there was something obvious I could point to as the reason why this is becoming a third world cesspool...
Why is quality of life in CA on the decline? Hmm...if only there was something obvious I could point to as the reason why this is becoming a third world cesspool...
Why is quality of life in CA on the decline? Hmm...if only there was something obvious I could point to as the reason why this is becoming a third world cesspool...
I have read this kind of reference to CA "becoming third world" so many times on this forum. But never from anyone who has really experienced third world living.
I have read this kind of reference to CA "becoming third world" so many times on this forum. But never from anyone who has really experienced third world living.
That's because your idea of third world, like so many Americans, is a sub-Saharan utterly destitute, no running water like country. Most of the world has developed. There are a lot of extremely impoverished slums still of course but the idea of all nations still being mud huts is a bit outdated.
I don't think the US looks like the slums of Mumbai by any means but it does remind me of the stagnant countries of Eastern Europe, more so than Western Europe (excluding the UK).
On two occasions, two mind you, I've heard Europeans, one from Italy and another from Denmark say that they were shocked at the level of poverty they saw when first visiting the US. They said the housing standards in the ghettos were poorer than back home, and that (and this is what surprised me the most), that minus the worst favelas, the US reminded them a bit of Brazil. A bit, grant you. Others I've met have said the US reminds them of Russia. In other words they didn't think the country reminded them of Western Europe at all and more like a huge, rich but stagnant nation with a large disparity of rich and poor.
Of course the Americans around us in the discussion argued back but they admitted they've never even left the country to explore. So of course no American wants to admit that this nation is not #1 in terms of standard of living or quality of life anymore.
That's because your idea of third world, like so many Americans, is a sub-Saharan utterly destitute, no running water like country. Most of the world has developed. There are a lot of extremely impoverished slums still of course but the idea of all nations still being mud huts is a bit outdated.
I don't think the US looks like the slums of Mumbai by any means but it does remind me of the stagnant countries of Eastern Europe, more so than Western Europe (excluding the UK).
On two occasions, two mind you, I've heard Europeans, one from Italy and another from Denmark say that they were shocked at the level of poverty they saw when first visiting the US. They said the housing standards in the ghettos were poorer than back home, and that (and this is what surprised me the most), that minus the worst favelas, the US reminded them a bit of Brazil. A bit, grant you. Others I've met have said the US reminds them of Russia. In other words they didn't think the country reminded them of Western Europe at all and more like a huge, rich but stagnant nation with a large disparity of rich and poor.
Of course the Americans around us in the discussion argued back but they admitted they've never even left the country to explore. So of course no American wants to admit that this nation is not #1 in terms of standard of living or quality of life anymore.
Um, no, actually. It's not. My experience with the third world is from Asia. Most intimately: living and fighting a war in SE Asia. Including rather lovely countryside living and somewhat modern cities, as well as rougher patches. And I am not overly focused on the visuals of poverty so much as I am the infrastructure, government, legal systems (such as they are in these places!), religious influences, and cultural conformations.
There are all kinds of poverty in the world. Not just economic.
I would also note that, just as posters here often reference "Third World" a lot, so do many people seem to accept that Europe represents the standard for "first world". It doesn't. It represents first world Europe. And even that said, most of the first world includes pockets of poverty and slums. That part of the mix hardly lowers the standards of law and government, social services, health services and oversight, transportation and utilities infrastructures to "Third World" status. Pockets of poverty are pockets of poverty in a first world developed society.
Um, no, actually. It's not. My experience with the third world is from Asia. Most intimately: living and fighting a war in SE Asia. Including rather lovely countryside living and somewhat modern cities, as well as rougher patches. And I am not overly focused on the visuals of poverty so much as I am the infrastructure, government, legal systems (such as they are in these places!), religious influences, and cultural conformations.
There are all kinds of poverty in the world. Not just economic.
I would also note that, just as posters here often reference "Third World" a lot, so do many people seem to accept that Europe represents the standard for "first world". It doesn't. It represents first world Europe. And even that said, most of the first world includes pockets of poverty and slums. That part of the mix hardly lowers the standards of law and government, social services, health services and oversight, transportation and utilities infrastructures to "Third World" status. Pockets of poverty are pockets of poverty in a first world developed society.
To be totally fair, the argument cuts both ways. A lot of people who defend a decrease in American quality of life keep making the comparison to prehistoric living or Third Rate nations' living conditions.
To accept comparisons against some pretty dismal conditions in the world or in history is like saying that America sucks so hard that we have to make comparisons against the worst, bottom tier competitors just to win the argument: Not really a good image.
Not that I disagree with you, clearly some reassessment on what defines "quality of life" is needed. I would like to see more comparisons about how people live in crowded cities around the world. London, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Taipei, Shanghai. As I recall, many people make do with postage stamp sized apartments, although they do have stronger social security systems in exchange. However, at least the costs and incomes usually seem to be enough to afford their own personal space, as small as they are.
At the same time, it is true that COL in California has passed many reasonable points where, even after adjusting quality of life expectations, people just aren't living decently. There's a wide spectrum of opinions but I think the fact that we see so much talk about COL vs wages must mean that we've already passed most reasonable expectations for what's acceptably good.
Also while I'm at it, a pedantic wording complaint: First World meant NATO and western powers, Second World meant Warsaw Pact and Communist Bloc nations, Third World meant independent nations. I know that colloquially people accept that they are equivalent to First Rate, Second Rate and Third Rate (hence my use of the past tense) but it's still a little distracting for me. Does this bother anyone else?
Last edited by DriveNotCommute; 02-20-2015 at 12:29 PM..
Reason: added COL; clarity
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The life you are simultaneously championing and criticizing was an anomaly in the history of civilization, that's what. You want to believe it is righteous, knock yourself out. I call it an illusion.
