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I also wonder how people could think we are paying a premium for just the weather.
I could understand why the nicest areas would cost much but not areas like the SFV. The issue is the wages just don't meet the COL. At least in places like NYC and DC and SF, they meet somewhat.
I live in the San Fernando Valley. My house, which was originally 1300 square feet, and now 1800 square feet would now sell for over $600,000. We paid $83,000 for it back in 1978, which I thought was expensive for that time, as I grew up in the midwest. To get anything decent and not live in the ghetto, you basically must spend a half million dollars. The other day, I was checking to see what condos would cost near me, as my sister is interested in moving to a warmer climate. She owns her condo in PA outright that is worth $190,000 and recently retired. She cannot afford to pay $350,000 or $400,000 for something out here, and she doesn't even like the valley or LA that much. My kids will likely inherit this home, but I don't see them getting a house of their own around here anytime soon unless they marry someone wealthy, which seems unlikely. We pay for the proximity to LA too, but the valley is just a big suburb.
Um, no, actually. It's not. My experience with the third world is from Asia. Most intimately: living and fighting a war in SE Asia. Including rather lovely countryside living and somewhat modern cities, as well as rougher patches. And I am not overly focused on the visuals of poverty so much as I am the infrastructure, government, legal systems (such as they are in these places!), religious influences, and cultural conformations.
There are all kinds of poverty in the world. Not just economic.
I would also note that, just as posters here often reference "Third World" a lot, so do many people seem to accept that Europe represents the standard for "first world". It doesn't. It represents first world Europe. And even that said, most of the first world includes pockets of poverty and slums. That part of the mix hardly lowers the standards of law and government, social services, health services and oversight, transportation and utilities infrastructures to "Third World" status. Pockets of poverty are pockets of poverty in a first world developed society.
Wrong again tulemutt. The increase of poverty in this country has also plunged the country into some third world level stuff that's not seen in developed Europe or Australia or New Zealand or Canada or other developed nations not in Europe. There is high corruption, high crime, lowered standard of living, access to basic things like healthcare or good education.
Do you really not notice the cheapening of our once great system? I think the tv show The Wire laid it out best at how the privatization of the country and how it really effected the public sector and everyday life for the worse in America.
For such a "hippie" Tulemutt you still come off as a knee jerk reactionary when defending the US. The point is not to disparage the US for the hell of it but to address the growing concerns that many Americans have about the country going down hill. Reactionaries don't even acknowledge that anything is wrong and assume that it's just the natural way of the world so get used to it.
Also while I'm at it, a pedantic wording complaint: First World meant NATO and western powers, Second World meant Warsaw Pact and Communist Bloc nations, Third World meant independent nations. I know that colloquially people accept that they are equivalent to First Rate, Second Rate and Third Rate (hence my use of the past tense) but it's still a little distracting for me. Does this bother anyone else?
I think those definitions are so nebulous and subjective as to be useless. FWIW - I've understood "third world" as referring to any county whose economy is characterized by the exportation of its natural resources, which are processed abroad and then sold back to that country as finished goods. Traditionally, the New World refers to Americas and Oceania, while Old World is the default for what is neither.
But yeah, people often invoke "third world" to describe a place, and more often than not, it's just plain ignorant.
Well, this just proves what I've always been saying about where I live.
If I'm going to pay a premium to live in an area with horrible winters, not so great weather the rest of the year, and humid summers, then I might as well pay the same price for somewhere with great weather, scenery, beaches, etc.
For the record I live in NJ, which is ranked worse than CA.
I think those definitions are so nebulous and subjective as to be useless. FWIW - I've understood "third world" as referring to any county whose economy is characterized by the exportation of its natural resources, which are processed abroad and then sold back to that country as finished goods. Traditionally, the New World refers to Americas and Oceania, while Old World is the default for what is neither.
But yeah, people often invoke "third world" to describe a place, and more often than not, it's just plain ignorant.
The terms are somewhat meaningless in this era because globalization has leveled the playing field for some countries and lowered the standard for others. And yes the original term was used in the Cold War to refer to counties not in the soviet sphere but the idea was that these nations were substantially poorer than the in the first world.
At the same time, it is true that COL in California has passed many reasonable points where, even after adjusting quality of life expectations, people just aren't living decently. There's a wide spectrum of opinions but I think the fact that we see so much talk about COL vs wages must mean that we've already passed most reasonable expectations for what's acceptably good.
Wow, this is really good. I will borrow this to explain my feelings in the LA forum. Someone asked how people make do in LA on an average or meager salary.
Wrong again tulemutt. The increase of poverty in this country has also plunged the country into some third world level stuff that's not seen in developed Europe or Australia or New Zealand or Canada or other developed nations not in Europe. There is high corruption, high crime, lowered standard of living, access to basic things like healthcare or good education.
Do you really not notice the cheapening of our once great system? I think the tv show The Wire laid it out best at how the privatization of the country and how it really effected the public sector and everyday life for the worse in America.
For such a "hippie" Tulemutt you still come off as a knee jerk reactionary when defending the US. The point is not to disparage the US for the hell of it but to address the growing concerns that many Americans have about the country going down hill. Reactionaries don't even acknowledge that anything is wrong and assume that it's just the natural way of the world so get used to it.
Radio, you are kinda amusing. Now you are going to tell me about what I have lived both here and abroad in the "third world" - that you haven't. You must be quite young. I'm thinking raised and educated upper middle class privileged? And who ever said I was a "hippie"? Not even close.
Our "once great system" existed for a few decades after WWII. That's it bub. Before that it was a Wild West shoot out. And it's been a developing farce since Reagan. Did it have you fooled? Fooled a lot of folks. All that false, unsustainable prosperity that we're paying for now.
What you should ponder a bit is the nature of the ruling class in today's world. The money, the intelligence, the expertise to guide the world forward into neo-feudalism. Not backward into your nightmare of old fashioned "third world" existence of yore. There's no percentage in doing that for the high rollers. They need consumers. And they need them under control.
What rulers have learned over time is that physically forceable capture and control - such as slaves in chains - and physical control of geographic territory - is unnecessary and troublesome and inefficient. After several stages of evolving out of that past, control is now by economics, and proceeding toward pharmaceutical and bio-AI.
You are correct: our freedoms, blah blah, etc etc, are being eroded. But we aren't being sent back to old time "third world" poverty. We are being gaily led forward into mindlessness by being given everything that will render us happy zombies.
Many people, perhaps yourself, have read Orwell's 1984. It's easy reading and gripping. Many people have also heard of Huxley's Brave New World. But not many have read it. It's quite absorbing, but takes a lot more thought to process through than 1984. But 1984 is only superficially prescient in select ways.
You strike me as having a facile mind. Capable. Just kinda lost ideologically. If you haven't read Brave New World, I suggest it. Your mentality will probably really click with it. There's your road map to the dystopia you fear, but the nature of which you are misjudging.
Hippie? Moi? Heh. Nah. Mind expanding drugs in my youth doesn't equate to hippie. Neither does a free spirited lifestyle. I've never been a liberal. Or conservative. Not a libertarian. Not even an independent. Not a hippie. Not a redneck. Not any label fits. Ideologies are for lazy intellects.
Also while I'm at it, a pedantic wording complaint: First World meant NATO and western powers, Second World meant Warsaw Pact and Communist Bloc nations, Third World meant independent nations. I know that colloquially people accept that they are equivalent to First Rate, Second Rate and Third Rate (hence my use of the past tense) but it's still a little distracting for me. Does this bother anyone else?
Nah. I gave up being bothered. What folks mean when they use it is obvious. And I just proceed with chuckling my way past that phantom bogeyman.
Radio, you are kinda amusing. Now you are going to tell me about what I have lived both here and abroad in the "third world" - that you haven't. You must be quite young. I'm thinking raised and educated upper middle class privileged? And who ever said I was a "hippie"? Not even close.
Our "once great system" existed for a few decades after WWII. That's it bub. Before that it was a Wild West shoot out. And it's been a developing farce since Reagan. Did it have you fooled? Fooled a lot of folks. All that false, unsustainable prosperity that we're paying for now.
What you should ponder a bit is the nature of the ruling class in today's world. The money, the intelligence, the expertise to guide the world forward into neo-feudalism. Not backward into your nightmare of old fashioned "third world" existence of yore. There's no percentage in doing that for the high rollers. They need consumers. And they need them under control.
What rulers have learned over time is that physically forceable capture and control - such as slaves in chains - and physical control of geographic territory - is unnecessary and troublesome and inefficient. After several stages of evolving out of that past, control is now by economics, and proceeding toward pharmaceutical and bio-AI.
You are correct: our freedoms, blah blah, etc etc, are being eroded. But we aren't being sent back to old time "third world" poverty. We are being gaily led forward into mindlessness by being given everything that will render us happy zombies.
Many people, perhaps yourself, have read Orwell's 1984. It's easy reading and gripping. Many people have also heard of Huxley's Brave New World. But not many have read it. It's quite absorbing, but takes a lot more thought to process through than 1984. But 1984 is only superficially prescient in select ways.
You strike me as having a facile mind. Capable. Just kinda lost ideologically. If you haven't read Brave New World, I suggest it. Your mentality will probably really click with it. There's your road map to the dystopia you fear, but the nature of which you are misjudging.
Hippie? Moi? Heh. Nah. Mind expanding drugs in my youth doesn't equate to hippie. Neither does a free spirited lifestyle. I've never been a liberal. Or conservative. Not a libertarian. Not even an independent. Not a hippie. Not a redneck. Not any label fits. Ideologies are for lazy intellects.
Well I'm not one to believe that our troubles are due to a conspiratorial elite. We live in a society largely controlled by owners of wealth who post war lost a bit of their grip of the political system and want that power back. After the depression they made concessions to the working class; higher wages, shorter hours, unionization, and worker protections. It did a lot to create the middle class we remember. Just having a 30% unionized workforce did a lot for the country as a whole. Wages kept pace, we were the biggest competitors since Germany and Japan were laid to rubble and this went on for two decades.
Zip forward to the seventies and the big dogs were realizing that at this rate wages would keep rising and start cutting into their profits. Inflation was out of control and the economy was stagnating. So what was the answer? Union busting. Ronald Reagan gave the ok after firing the traffic controllers to kill the unions. Next was to undue the bastard Keynesianism of the post war era and adopt the largely pro business economics of Milton Friedman. Wages no longer kept pace and credit filled in the hole for the loss of purchasing power. We had financial speculation and bubbles propping up what was once an economy based on real trade and manufacturing. Financiers began to replace industrialists as the Forbes richest.
This is economic history. It wasn't a conspiracy. It was just total a economic policy shift. It can be changed back.
And yes I'm young but I see that as a benefit rather than a burden because I've noticed that all the old timer baby boomer types either believe one of two things; that it is how it is so put up and shut up, OR its all a conspiracy to undue the country.
Both those beliefs are misguided because they follow a terrible premise; that the US system is near perfect and exceptional so the fault lies elsewhere, either in the individual or a nefarious plot by elitists to bring it down from within.
Tulemutt you fall under the category that believes that it's been this way since time immemorial. That its just a universal law or human nature. You guys are really stuck on the whole human nature thing. You don't see any differences in each era, no nuances and how each epoch has produced good and bad, progress and regress.
I live in the San Fernando Valley. My house, which was originally 1300 square feet, and now 1800 square feet would now sell for over $600,000. We paid $83,000 for it back in 1978, which I thought was expensive for that time, as I grew up in the midwest. To get anything decent and not live in the ghetto, you basically must spend a half million dollars. The other day, I was checking to see what condos would cost near me, as my sister is interested in moving to a warmer climate. She owns her condo in PA outright that is worth $190,000 and recently retired. She cannot afford to pay $350,000 or $400,000 for something out here, and she doesn't even like the valley or LA that much. My kids will likely inherit this home, but I don't see them getting a house of their own around here anytime soon unless they marry someone wealthy, which seems unlikely. We pay for the proximity to LA too, but the valley is just a big suburb.
Your sister might want to come and rent in a senior apt bldg. Owning isn't necessary. There are a lot of affordable senior housing options in CA. It's huge business now - tax properties. Some have market rate units, and other types of units mixed in. They all have to pass inspections by the different funding agencies, and my experience so far in two of them (Redding and Crescent City) is that they are very nice and very well-maintained. Just a thought.
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Not even close.
