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Hades is merely the grave...The devil is not in hell, I think he still has access to the heavenlies...Now we understand the dead that are in the sea and we understand the dead that are in the grave...But how can death have dead?...Dead is dead...Unless it is referring to the grip death has on the soul, or that the dead were brought to life in order to judge them...Or is this some metaphor or idiom understood by the readers contemporaneous?...
REV 20:13-14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rather than make up you own meaning. why don't you accept what is written, take your time and let God unfold its' meaning to you.
The Devil is in hell limited to what he can do by the chains that God put on Him
2PET 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
One day that place of darkness and the spiritual death that it gave birth to among mankind will be cast into the lake of fire. The redeemed will not die this secound death because they are in the 1st resurrection.
No doubt that many religions incorporate a 'Satan-like' character...since Adam and Eve likely recounted the events that led to their eviction from the Garden of Eden. That account was passed down through generations of story telling. Descendants eventually went on to create their own beliefs and religious systems.
REV 20:13-14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rather than make up you own meaning. why don't you accept what is written, take your time and let God unfold its' meaning to you.
The Devil is in hell limited to what he can do by the chains that God put on Him
2PET 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
One day that place of darkness and the spiritual death that it gave birth to among mankind will be cast into the lake of fire. The redeemed will not die this secound death because they are in the 1st resurrection.
It states nothing about Satan being in hell... It says He cast them down to Tartarus...Which is the deepest abyss of Hades which is the grave...
Richard, I must point out that I'm in total agreement that hades is the grave. I don't believe that Satan is the Lord of the underworld is a scriptural teaching. His being hurled to earth, I believe has already occured. His access to heaven cut off- hence the cleansing of heaven. For whatever reason according to God's timeline, he and the angels that followed him were allowed access to heaven and earth for a period of time. Perhaps *speculation* Satan was given amply time in heaven to mislead the angels...some did follow him, so it appears they have free will too.
The fact that you do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God but only a brochure explains why you say such things. To quote you, "The Bible is not the word of God. The Bible is nothing but a brochure to follow God and was written by men that had their own agendas."
Yeah, it was written by men and therefore it has errors. The Bible words also refelct the ignorance of the era it was written. So as of know it isa brochure to try to understand God and the origins of Christianity.
Quote:
Metaphysics has nothing to do with it. The Devil is Gods and mans enemy because Jesus said so. Christ is the one who explains spiritual reality not metaphysics.
Sometimes, the Bible gets it right; God is as follows:
God is infinite: What is meant by infinity is that God is not excluded, bounded in or limited in any way as to the existence of His presence by any material thing, form of energy, soul, spirit, thought, emotion, place, or any other thing or phenomenon in the supernatural or natural realm. 1Kings 8:27: Within this concept there cannot be a Satan
God is perfect: There are various words in the Old and New Covenants that are translated perfect, and they generally have the meaning of being complete and without lack or defect. (What is meant by 'perfect' when applied to believers is maturity.) Matthew 5:48: Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
If God is truly perfect God cannot have an adversary: This is a simple conclusion and the only way to preserve God's perfection.
God is omnipresent: Whereas infinity addresses the location of God's presence in terms of limitations, omnipresence addresses the location of God's presence in terms of extent. "God is everywhere present with His whole being at all times" (Dr. Charles Ryrie, Basic Theology [Chicago: Moody Press, 1981], p. 41). Psalm 139:7-10:
If God is omnipresent there is no space for Satan. God occupies the entire available space of the universe. Satan has no room.
God is omnipotent: By omnipotence is meant that God is infinitely powerful and able to do all things within the confines of His nature. Genesis 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Act 5:30: The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed and hanged on a tree.
The work of Satan would diminish God and that is an impossibility! If there is a Satan it simply means that God is not omnipotent and that is a BIG NO NO.
Last edited by Julian658; 02-19-2012 at 09:41 AM..
I do know Jesus existed because there is a historical record.
There is no historical record of the existence of Satan.
So, you believe Jesus existed because there is a historical record, not because you have faith in the fact. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and God? There is no historical record of them.
Jesus said He has seen Satan, and his disciples said they drove out demons, so according to Jesus Satan and demons exist.
Hades is merely the grave...The devil is not in hell, I think he still has access to the heavenlies...Now we understand the dead that are in the sea and we understand the dead that are in the grave...But how can death have dead?...Dead is dead...Unless it is referring to the grip death has on the soul, or that the dead were brought to life in order to judge them...Or is this some metaphor or idiom understood by the readers contemporaneous?...
The Hebrew word "sheol" means grave, and in Jewish thought was where the bodies were stacked up. I Genesis, God tells Adam "You are dust, and to dust you will return" Hence the ancient Jewish belief that there was no afterlife.
Those Hellenized Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew into the Greek of the Septuagint used the word "hades" for "sheol" because it was close enough, a place of darkness where the poor souls were gathered for who knows what purpose. In the Odyssey, Odysseus travels to Hades to seek wisdom from the long dead Tiresias, and while there encounters some of his buddies from Trojan War days. I seem to recall some Greek mythology which spoke of those souls drinking of the waters of oblivion, wiping their memories so they could be reincarnated in innocence.
If one studies based on context, one can see an evolution in thought regarding underworld and afterlife. This leads to the concept of "purgatory" in Hellenistic thought, and the use of the Lazarus and the Rich Man story in Luke, a story of cleansing and hope for redemption.
Any case, Greek mythology also presents Tartarus, a place where "some" evil people are punished eternally. Prometheus, Sisyphus, Tantalus, for example. But almost all dead souls are free of the torments of Tartarus, and merely hang out in eternal gloom apparently. I believe it was Achilles who tells Odysseus that he would rather be the lowest slave in Persia and alive, than be there in Hades eternally.
I have this argument with Christians all the time: there is no hell nor the concept of hell in the modern Christian view to be found in the Old Testament, and that if their translations contain the word hell in the OT then their translations are wrong. Ask any rabbi. I find it amazing that most Christians take th position that the translators of KJV and just about every other modern translation take the position that modern Christians know more about the OT than do Jewish scholars and rabbis.
My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread. I am enjoying catching up.
The Hebrew word "sheol" means grave, and in Jewish thought was where the bodies were stacked up. I Genesis, God tells Adam "You are dust, and to dust you will return" Hence the ancient Jewish belief that there was no afterlife.
Those Hellenized Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew into the Greek of the Septuagint used the word "hades" for "sheol" because it was close enough, a place of darkness where the poor souls were gathered for who knows what purpose. In the Odyssey, Odysseus travels to Hades to seek wisdom from the long dead Tiresias, and while there encounters some of his buddies from Trojan War days. I seem to recall some Greek mythology which spoke of those souls drinking of the waters of oblivion, wiping their memories so they could be reincarnated in innocence.
If one studies based on context, one can see an evolution in thought regarding underworld and afterlife. This leads to the concept of "purgatory" in Hellenistic thought, and the use of the Lazarus and the Rich Man story in Luke, a story of cleansing and hope for redemption.
Any case, Greek mythology also presents Tartarus, a place where "some" evil people are punished eternally. Prometheus, Sisyphus, Tantalus, for example. But almost all dead souls are free of the torments of Tartarus, and merely hang out in eternal gloom apparently. I believe it was Achilles who tells Odysseus that he would rather be the lowest slave in Persia and alive, than be there in Hades eternally.
I have this argument with Christians all the time: there is no hell nor the concept of hell in the modern Christian view to be found in the Old Testament, and that if their translations contain the word hell in the OT then their translations are wrong. Ask any rabbi. I find it amazing that most Christians take th position that the translators of KJV and just about every other modern translation take the position that modern Christians know more about the OT than do Jewish scholars and rabbis.
My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread. I am enjoying catching up.
I guess I'm not like "most" Christians; I do recognize these errors! Thanks for the info.
Yeah, it was written by men and therefore it has errors. The Bible words also refelct the ignorance of the era it was written. So as of know it isa brochure to try to understand God and the origins of Christianity.
Sometimes, the Bible gets it right; God is as follows:
God is infinite: What is meant by infinity is that God is not excluded, bounded in or limited in any way as to the existence of His presence by any material thing, form of energy, soul, spirit, thought, emotion, place, or any other thing or phenomenon in the supernatural or natural realm. 1Kings 8:27: Within this concept there cannot be a Satan
God is perfect: There are various words in the Old and New Covenants that are translated perfect, and they generally have the meaning of being complete and without lack or defect. (What is meant by 'perfect' when applied to believers is maturity.) Matthew 5:48: Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
If God is truly perfect God cannot have an adversary: This is a simple conclusion and the only way to preserve God's perfection.
God is omnipresent: Whereas infinity addresses the location of God's presence in terms of limitations, omnipresence addresses the location of God's presence in terms of extent. "God is everywhere present with His whole being at all times" (Dr. Charles Ryrie, Basic Theology [Chicago: Moody Press, 1981], p. 41). Psalm 139:7-10:
If God is omnipresent there is no space for Satan. God occupies the entire available space of the universe. Satan has no room.
God is omnipotent: By omnipotence is meant that God is infinitely powerful and able to do all things within the confines of His nature. Genesis 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Act 5:30: The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed and hanged on a tree.
The work of Satan would diminish God and that is an impossibility! If there is a Satan it simply means that God is not omnipotent and that is a BIG NO NO.
For someone who denies the Bible as the Word of God, what credibility do you have to speak as an authority about what is true? You pick and choose only what you think God agrees with you about and disregard the rest as Jewish fables.
Satan even though active in the earth from the domain of hell [spiritual darkness], it does not diminish God at all because He is the tool of God. He is the waster/destroyer for Gods purpose for all those who will not choose God and rise up in Christ to rule and reign in righteousness. Man proves his greatness only in Christ by rising up against evil with the sword of the Spirit as Christ did.
PS 109:3-6 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
1COR 5:4-5 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
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I guess I'm not like "most" Christians; I do recognize these errors! Thanks for the info.
