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Yes, but YOU have to read ALL the Bible, not just the parts that support the theology that you were taught, because you didn't discover it on your own. As stated before, if you see a turtle on a fence post you know it had help getting there.
How is one part of the family of God without putting His word into practice? They aren't. Instead they are like a man one day who had just put the finishing touches on a new concrete driveway and went inside to enjoy a glass of tea, when to his horror, looking out the window, he saw the neighbor's small boy playing in the fresh concrete. He ran out angrily shouting at the child. After fixing the concrete he came back inside where his wife asked him, "Why did you yell so angrily at that little boy. I thought you loved little boys." To which the man replied, "I love little boys in the abstract, but I don't like them in the concrete."
Many who say they are Christians are like that.They love Jesus in the abstract, but they don't like Him in the concrete. When truth gets too specific, when it means I have to actually change my life within the power of God, it goes too far. Like Linus in the comic strip, we shout, "I love mankind!!! It's people I can't stand."
Every person who claims to be a Christian loves Christ in the abstract. But when it means I have to actually change the way I think, the way I treat my wife and kids, the way I do business, the way I spend my time and money, and even the way I treat my enemies, "Now wait a minute, you've gone from preaching to meddling. I want to be saved without the hassle!"
But you shall know them by their fruits--Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16. The word "fruit" used here is Strong's Number 2590, which means "work, act, deed" [Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
Since it doesn't fit your theology you have to "explain" Jesus statement was to someone else instead of doing what men of faith really do---see every word out of the mouth of Christ as directed toward themselves. That's why the thread of truth must be traced through and be reconciled with ALL scripture.
And how does living one's faith---or not living it affect the unbeliever or non-Christian?
Another story in order to use parables that Jesus used to teach truth--
A mother was reprimanding her small son, "Johnny do you know what happens to little boys who tell lies?"
"Yes," he replied. "They travel for half fare."
Her life was a demonstration to her son about what was in her heart. He had learned from her leadership. And this is the reason churches are failing in the message they deliver today, to make any real difference in the lives of those who "accept" Christ. They teach loving Jesus in the abstract, but not in the concrete.
Matt 12:50
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same shall be my brother and sister, and mother."
In all the ages of the world, people have accepted words for deeds, FOR THEY ARE CONTENT WITH A SHOW, and rarely pause to note, in the public arena, whether promises to God (I believe in You, Lord) are followed by performance.
Although Paul wrote the following words to encourage Christians to provide for those who minister to them, in some ways it is a rhetorical question, stating that God expects to do the same from His children.
New International Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?
English Standard Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
New American Standard Bible
Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
King James Bible
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock?
International Standard Version
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk?
Well, if you believe OSAS, apparently God plants vineyards and does not expect to eat any of the grapes, and tends sheep with no expectation of milk.
So Jesus said, "Take up your cross and follow me." What kind of cross do you bear if there are no requirements upon you as a servant?
Lets say a believer is stranded on a deserted island, yet has enough food there to live out the rest of his life. No one is around, and he is never found. How is this man to express his faith by doing works when there is no witness to it and no person to bless? Does the fact he had no way to express his faith with works change the fact he is saved? No it doesn't! But did it change the fact that he wanted to? No. When you are born again God gives you a new heart. This new heart is connected to the holy spirit and He teaches you all things and guides you. He is not keeping count of your good works nor basing your salvation on any good fruit you bring forth at all. Your salvation is based solely and entirely on the finished work of Christ.
Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.
And what is love? Keeping God's commandments--
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
1 John 2:5 But whoso KEEPETH HIS WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected: HEREBY know we that we are in him.
I John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him.
The unsaved, unregenerate man does not keep God's commandments. God's commandments are in the Bible. The unsaved man does whatever he feels like doing every day giving no heed to God's word. He is not obedient to God's word. He lives according to the ways he chooses to live. Maybe the person reading this is what people call "religious" and they think that they love God. If you are not worshipping God according to his word, the Bible, he is not receiving your worship.
So say what you will, the scriptures are quite clear that those that love Him FOLLOW His commandments.And If someone says that they KNOW Him, but does not KEEP His commandments, they are a LIAR. And because all scripture must be reconciled with other scriptures----
Revelation 21:8 -"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and allliars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." [NKJV]
It's an excuse from so-called Christians to avoid being servants
Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519
Lets say a believer is stranded on a deserted island, yet has enough food there to live out the rest of his life. No one is around, and he is never found. How is this man to express his faith by doing works when there is no witness to it and no person to bless? Does the fact he had no way to express his faith with works change the fact he is saved? No it doesn't! But did it change the fact that he wanted to? No. When you are born again God gives you a new heart. This new heart is connected to the holy spirit and He teaches you all things and guides you. He is not keeping count of your good works nor basing your salvation on any good fruit you bring forth at all. Your salvation is based solely and entirely on the finished work of Christ.
Your example is extreme--and hypothetical. While we live in a real world. Jesus' teachings didn't take into account individuals stranded on a deserted island with enough food to keep them alive for years!!! Because the possibilities are so enormously small. Since He didn't address that issue, I don't speculate on it.
But the scriptures do talk consistently about people who draw nigh to Him with their lips while their lives display hearts that are not following Him. Since you are not on a deserted island, the question is, how are YOU going to live?
That's the question his scriptures pose for me as well. And it appears He expects to have fruit from the vine, milk from the sheep, and figs from the tree.
Are you an obedient servant, or one who is an apologetic for failure to follow His commandments. My personal feeling (I have no insight from God on this) is that people who constantly apologize for "backslidden Christians" who have no works, do so because it is a reflection of their own lives.
Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.
The questioner intent was to prove that he could by keeping the commandments he could make his way into heaven.
Jesus' answer was to show what it takes to do it without him as the substitute ... you do it "ALL".
with ALL thy heart,
and with ALL thy soul,
and with ALL thy mind.
And fwi:
God says what the standard of "ALL" is: don't even stumble at one command.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Those are the "liars" of Rev 21:8 ... If you take your approach, you'd better not be found "stumbles at just one point" ... or you're going to be found as a liar, be condemned as breaking all the commandments and be grouped in with:
the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters
First you need to learn the will of the Father and the context of the verse you quoted. Mike555 posted an excellent thread about this recently which you can read here: //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ry-strong.html
The will of the Father for us is to believe in Jesus. It always bothers me when people quote "you gotta do the will of the Father" without first knowing that that means.
That ye believe on him whom he (the Father) sent; or, hath sent. Ἵνα πιστεύητε, here preferred by the R.T. to πιστεύσητε (see John 13:19), marks the simple fact and continuous act of believing with the effort tending to such result;while the aorist would have pointed to one definite act of faith (see Westcott).. To "believe on him," to habitually entrust one's self to the power and grace of Christ, to make a full moral surrender of the soul to the Lord, includes in itself all other work, and is in itself the great work of God. "It is the Christian answer to the Jewish question" (Thoma). "Faith is the life of works, works the necessity of faith" (Westcott). "Faith is the highest kind of work, for by it man gives himself to God, and a free being can do nothing greater than give himself: James opposes work to a faith which would be nothing but intellectual belief. Paul opposes faith, active faith, to works of mere observance.
Pulpit Bible Commentary John 6:29
This is the Pulpit Bible commentary on the same verses. Hardly a liberal source either. It's a continuous act of believing ("believing" in the Scriptures is almost always in the present tense, not the past) with the effort tending to such result. The faith James is condemning is not the faith Paul is commending. And likewise, neither are the works Paul is opposing the same as the works James is proposing.
Faith and Works, two sides of the same coin.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-20-2013 at 06:47 PM..
Reason: clarification
That ye believe on him whom he (the Father) sent; or, hath sent. Ἵνα πιστεύητε, here preferred by the R.T. to πιστεύσητε (see John 13:19), marks the simple fact and continuous act of believing with the effort tending to such result;while the aorist would have pointed to one definite act of faith (see Westcott).. To "believe on him," to habitually entrust one's self to the power and grace of Christ, to make a full moral surrender of the soul to the Lord, includes in itself all other work, and is in itself the great work of God. "It is the Christian answer to the Jewish question" (Thoma). "Faith is the life of works, works the necessity of faith" (Westcott). "Faith is the highest kind of work, for by it man gives himself to God, and a free being can do nothing greater than give himself: James opposes work to a faith which would be nothing but intellectual belief. Paul opposes faith, active faith, to works of mere observance.
Pulpit Bible Commentary John 6:29
This is the Pulpit Bible commentary on the same verses. Hardly a liberal source either. It's a continuous act of believing ("believing" in the Scriptures is almost always in the present tense, not the past) with the effort tending to such result. The faith James is condemning is not the faith Paul is commending. And likewise, neither are the works Paul is opposing the same as the works James is proposing.
Faith and Works, two sides of the same coin.
Adam's sin made us all sinners apart from our performance. Jesus' righteousness makes any believer in Him righteous apart from their performance. You didn't become a sinner because of your choosing or works. That happened to you because of what Adam did. The same is true for salvation. No one becomes righteous because of what they do. You are covered with Jesus' righteousness when you believe in Him. It is done to you. And as I've said and will always say, right believing will produce right living.
<snip> And as I've said and will always say, right believing will produce right living.
Well here's a video where right believing produced sinful living. Watch it all. I'm far more comfortable with right living first, which makes right believing much easier. But you cannot have one without the other. If you have faith and LIVE the truth, you have right believing. No one can make some teachings of Jesus paramount over others and He spoke of both FAITH and WORKS. If you don't have both, you don't have Jesus. What you have may be good or bad in the eyes of men, but it is not representative of the life that Jesus lived and expects of us when he said, "Follow me."
This guy committed his sin BECAUSE he believed what you call "right." And I ask you, as I asked Mike, how does right belief lead to sinful action? As Jesus said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
Well here's a video where right believing produced sinful living. Watch it all. I'm far more comfortable with right living first, which makes right believing much easier. But you cannot have one without the other. If you have faith and LIVE the truth, you have right believing. No one can make some teachings of Jesus paramount over others and He spoke of both FAITH and WORKS. If you don't have both, you don't have Jesus. What you have may be good or bad in the eyes of men, but it is not representative of the life that Jesus lived and expects of us when he said, "Follow me."
This guy committed his sin BECAUSE he believed what you call "right." And I ask you, as I asked Mike, how does right belief lead to sinful action? As Jesus said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
The question to ask for all of the people mentioned in the video you provided is this: Were they born again?
A person is born again when they hear the gospel and make a personal decision to believe in Jesus for their salvation. At that very moment your heart is changed forever and you are seated with Jesus.
One of the very first questions truth seekers ask when they hear about Jesus and what He did for us is this, "Does that mean I can sin and not be punished for it?" Even Paul was asked this question. Do you see how God's grace is so misunderstood even today? As smart as people are we should have more people by now finally coming to grips with what Jesus has done for us. The video you posted was nothing more than a works minded believer focused on attacking grace and promoting religion. Yes, many believers do not understand grace. It is not a license to sin. Paul said how can you sin when you are dead to sin. Sin the noun! He never said you are dead to the influence of sin. But in the eyes of God our flesh has been crucified. The most dangerous thing anyone can ever do is tell a non believer that if they do any sin they will go to Heaven. Why? Because you're giving this advice to someone who is already dead. Their soul has not been regenerated by the blood of Jesus. They haven't been born again.
Do you believe that someone who is born again can never be depressed? How about so depressed they commit suicide? Do you believe that a believer does not feel guilt when they sin? I once heard Joseph Prince say, "If you're under attack its a sure sign you're born again." Why? Because the devil can only make believers feel guilty and condemned. There's no point in the devil to go in the mind of a non believer and tell him that sin he did last week is going to send him to hell. That person doesn't even believe in hell. But if a person believes in Jesus, they know what Heaven is and they want to go there when they die. But if a voice inside that person's head tells them they angered God because of a sin they committed then that person will feel disqualified fro God's love and grace.
If God sees us all a sinner because of what Adam did, then God sees us all righteous because of what Jesus did if you believe in Him. Adam had a choice to choose God by not eating from the tree of knowledge. Today we all have a choice to choose Jesus by believing in Him. Its a choice. We don't have to believe, but there is a consequence for our choice just as Adam faced his consequence for his choice. Don't get this mixed up with license to sin because grace is not a license to sin. Grace is God's expression of His love and mercy towards you. If you had to earn it, its no longer grace. Its a debt. If someone sins on purpose because they think the blood of Jesus is constantly keeping them clean and yet they feel no remorse for their sins then that person is not born again. They have not put their personal trust in Jesus to save them otherwise they would have the holy spirit in them telling them that this thought or thing you are doing is wrong. Your flesh will never tell you that sin is wrong.
Know this: If there is a sin that a believer can commit, (not out of desire but for other reasons such as depression, guilt, shame, loneliness, lack of trust or anger) that can disqualify them from salvation then that means there is a sin that has more power than the blood of Jesus. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not sitting at the right Hand of God because He is His Son. Lord Jesus Christ is sitting at the right Hand of the Father because He has bore every single sin in this world from Adam until the last breath breathed by man in this world and was raised from the dead after receiving the punishment for all of our sins. There is no sin greater than the blood of Jesus and that my friend is the true gospel.
1 John 4:17 "By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have boldness for the day of judgment, because as He is so also are we in this world."
The question to ask for all of the people mentioned in the video you provided is this: Were they born again?
A person is born again when they hear the gospel and make a personal decision to believe in Jesus for their salvation. At that very moment your heart is changed forever and you are seated with Jesus.
One of the very first questions truth seekers ask when they hear about Jesus and what He did for us is this, "Does that mean I can sin and not be punished for it?" Even Paul was asked this question. Do you see how God's grace is so misunderstood even today? As smart as people are we should have more people by now finally coming to grips with what Jesus has done for us. The video you posted was nothing more than a works minded believer focused on attacking grace and promoting religion. Yes, many believers do not understand grace. It is not a license to sin. Paul said how can you sin when you are dead to sin. Sin the noun! He never said you are dead to the influence of sin. But in the eyes of God our flesh has been crucified. The most dangerous thing anyone can ever do is tell a non believer that if they do any sin they will go to Heaven. Why? Because you're giving this advice to someone who is already dead. Their soul has not been regenerated by the blood of Jesus. They haven't been born again.
Do you believe that someone who is born again can never be depressed? How about so depressed they commit suicide? Do you believe that a believer does not feel guilt when they sin? I once heard Joseph Prince say, "If you're under attack its a sure sign you're born again." Why? Because the devil can only make believers feel guilty and condemned. There's no point in the devil to go in the mind of a non believer and tell him that sin he did last week is going to send him to hell. That person doesn't even believe in hell. But if a person believes in Jesus, they know what Heaven is and they want to go there when they die. But if a voice inside that person's head tells them they angered God because of a sin they committed then that person will feel disqualified fro God's love and grace.
If God sees us all a sinner because of what Adam did, then God sees us all righteous because of what Jesus did if you believe in Him. Adam had a choice to choose God by not eating from the tree of knowledge. Today we all have a choice to choose Jesus by believing in Him. Its a choice. We don't have to believe, but there is a consequence for our choice just as Adam faced his consequence for his choice. Don't get this mixed up with license to sin because grace is not a license to sin. Grace is God's expression of His love and mercy towards you. If you had to earn it, its no longer grace. Its a debt. If someone sins on purpose because they think the blood of Jesus is constantly keeping them clean and yet they feel no remorse for their sins then that person is not born again. They have not put their personal trust in Jesus to save them otherwise they would have the holy spirit in them telling them that this thought or thing you are doing is wrong. Your flesh will never tell you that sin is wrong.
Know this: If there is a sin that a believer can commit, (not out of desire but for other reasons such as depression, guilt, shame, loneliness, lack of trust or anger) that can disqualify them from salvation then that means there is a sin that has more power than the blood of Jesus. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not sitting at the right Hand of God because He is His Son. Lord Jesus Christ is sitting at the right Hand of the Father because He has bore every single sin in this world from Adam until the last breath breathed by man in this world and was raised from the dead after receiving the punishment for all of our sins. There is no sin greater than the blood of Jesus and that my friend is the true gospel.
1 John 4:17 "By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have boldness for the day of judgment, because as He is so also are we in this world."
Those of us who hold that FAITH and WORKS and PERSEVERANCE are all equally important in the sight of God would see those of you who believe the first line of your statement above as essentially believing the same thing that we do. I don't care if you prefer to believe that person was never saved or not. SODINI believed he was saved and going to heaven because of his confession of a doctrine of grace without servanthood which you hold sacred.
If you listened to the entire video there are two real life examples of people who did commit suicide BECAUSE they believed they were eternally saved through lip profession rather than through a combination of confession and service to God. No matter how you cut the mustard seed of faith, that false doctrine has brought about evil--even if you believe they were saved.
And I ask you again, how is it that doctrine which you consider holy can result in justification for doing evil.
International Standard Version
He knew what they were thinking and told them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
Quote:
--every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; a government, in which there is a disagreement between the chiefs of it, and the body of the people, or where one part is opposed to the other, or in which a civil and intestine war is begun and prosecuted, cannot continue in any comfortable situation, and flourishing state, but must come to nothing: this is a maxim that has been so often fatally verified, that no one will doubt the truth of it; and the same holds true of lesser communities, of cities, and families:
-----and the same may be said of the kingdom and government of Satan. These, it is very likely, were common sayings among the Jews, and they might be very easily understood by them; and are very appropriately produced by Christ to illustrate the present case, and confute the vile and blasphemous suggestions of the Pharisees: a proverbial expression, much like to these, is to be read in the writings of the Jews,
"every house, in which there is a division, at the end shall come to desolation".
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
So for doctrine to bring about a belief that evil is justified means that the pure and holy God Who is claimed as authority of such doctrine is divided against Himself.
Satan certainly does not argue against a doctrine that would allow evil to be justified as heavenly. In fact, that is the sweet whisperings into the ears of people that he uses to induce them to serve him. If you reject doctrines that result in evil, you reject Satan. If you do not, then you find yourself, willingly or not, in league with him. "He who is not with me, is against me."
1 Peter 1:1-25 is a great place to start. Galatians 2:1-21 is the one that can sum it up for you. If you don't have a Bible, don't fret or sweat just go here instead;
It has different versions of the Bible like NKJV, KJV, NLT, NIV.
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Furthering the idea of Works proving Faith
