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June's with you on the "agape love" concept. That is what June had always believed, in terms of what she was taught, and what made absolute sense to her at one time about Christianity.
In terms of your comment: "Your 'wanting' is more than enough proof of your intrinsic belief in God...why else would you want such a thing?" is something June has to give some considerable thought to. (June's pondering that which can be "identifiable" and accurately "known" by a person at the moment....) --So June is going to have to think (when she's finally able to again!) and as she's said above, respond later.
--But she can't sign off here without saying that while she understands why you refer to eternal torment as "nonsense," she has to add that a big part of what fascinates and compels her fascination is that it's not nonsense to those who uphold that particular doctrine of Christianity. June is very, very, very aware of the fact that for those who believe in this particular doctrine, it is very real and true for them. And incredibly important! She therefore can't dismiss it as "nonsense" in either her attempt at understanding it, nor in her being respectful that what a person believes is an integral part of who they are....June doesn't understand that mindset, but she respects the fact that one's ideology, one's faith and belief are just that: their belief. And understand it or not, she'll still respect those who believe it. One of June's former minister friends believed in eternal torment. June "didn't get it", but she still respected her friend despite her lack of understanding, and belief.... (It's "just June" being her "just June" self. She's sure you know what she means, n'est ce pas?)
P.S. Did that come across as June sounding harsh? If so, believe June when she says she was not intending to come across as being harsh! Non!
I understand your view and do not think you have been harsh. I use "nonsense" because it really doesn't make any sense to me . . . not to disrespect anyone's beliefs. It truly does NOT make sense. Some of the things Mike believes I agree with . . . but only those things that make sense to me and Christ's revelations about the TRUE NATURE of God. That is what I consider a true Christian to believe . . . what Christ revealed . . . NOT what our ignorant ancient ancestors wrote about what they believed. A child can see that they are not compatible . . . pretending they are and trying to merge the two sets of beliefs about God is just madness, IMO. It is the reason we have such absurd excuses and rationalizations in the mainstream dogma.
Again, as with any category of doctrine, it by a comparison of scripture with scripture that a full and proper understanding is realized. It has already been shown that the lake of fire does not mean annihilation.
We both know that you are not going to listen to what I say, and so I will not take up my time arguing with you. Believe what you wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Fair enough, and believe me the feeling is mutual. If you cannot see that the message of what we are saved from in the scriptures did not include eternal hell, or that the hearer when hearing the message responded to it by made no reference to eternal hell, then you too are obviously not going to listen of be reasonable in your conclusions. Make your arguments for eternal hell if you will , but please don't tell me don't tell me that is what the scripture tells us we are saved from.
Camps what is plainly recorded in scripture is that we are saved from our sins, just as you have pointed out, Mike and those who believe as he does simply do not believe what is plainly recorded in the scriptures. They have to compare scripture with scripture to get what they want out of them, and even then nothing in their comparisons of scripture actually says anything about being saved from eternal torment. They are simply blind to the fact we are commanded to teach that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, especially of those that believe. They simply CANNOT teach what the scriptures command us to teach.
There are what, three or four ways for Christians to perceive death and hell?
1. Traditionalist View- Eternal Torment, disembodied soul departs the body and you know the rest.
2. Universalist View- Purgatorial purging, cleansing fire for untold duration until ready for heaven. Not Catholic view, where purgatory is for the faithful, not the unfaithful.
3. Annihilationist View-Conditional immortality. Dead resurrected, judged, annihilated.
4. Metaphorical View-Hell is more mental, not physical.
In Samuele Bacchiocchi's book Immortality or Resurrection in chapter 6 he details each of these views. He is adventist so believes in annihilation yet through his obvious bias he gives a fair analysis of each. I will say he has no use for the universalist view, which makes sense considering his denomination's outward disdain for the denomination that believes that. How's that for a confusing summary? He makes no mention of those "Christians" who deny Hell's existence entirely.
No doubt there are other views out there.
There was a time I thought it didn't matter what one believes, but I've changed my mind. My view of the afterlife impacts how I view unbelievers in this life.
There was a time I thought it didn't matter what one believes, but I've changed my mind. My view of the afterlife impacts how I view unbelievers in this life.
That true. In Eternal Torment there is no MOTIVE for the punishment. It accomplishes nothing - it is WITHOUT PURPOSE.
... and can anyone begin to know God's purpose unless love and grace is the cornerstone of thought?
Isn't it written that God's love surpasses knowledge? If our message of affirmation lacks love and grace, then it is not of the Spirit, but of knowledge. Therefore the Holly Spirit's purpose is to grow your spirit so that your heart sees better than your eyes and your tongue speaks only in love.
Thus ended June's seeking; thus re-emerged not only June's disbelief, but the subsequent reinforcement to her atheism.
T.H. Huxley, a well-known agnostic, was with a group of men at a weekend house party. On Sunday morning, while most of them were preparing to go to church, he approached a man known for his Christian character and said, "Suppose you stay at home and tell my why you are a Christian." The man, knowing he couldn't match wits with Huxley, hesitated. But the agnostic said gently, "I don't want to argue with you. I just want you to tell me simply what this Christ means to you." The man did, and when he finished, there were tears in Huxley's eyes as he said, "I would give my right hand if only I could believe that!" Our Daily Bread, January 24, 1993.
That true. In Eternal Torment there is no MOTIVE for the punishment. It accomplishes nothing - it is WITHOUT PURPOSE.
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic law the punishment was to fit the crime.
Equal: hand for hand, eye for eye, life for life.
What crime could a person commit that could equal an eternity ?
I notice above you used the word ' torment ' and Not the word ' torture '.
The reason Scripture uses the word ' torment ' instead of ' torture ' is because the meaning is different.
Please notice Matthew [ 18 vs 30,34 ] because the jailer is the tormentor. He is Not the torturer. The torment is that the person is in jail. Satan will be jailed, so to speak, in the abyss for a thousand years before Satan is destroyed by Jesus.
- Revelation 20 vs 1-3; Hebrews 2 v 14 B
Hi June. I'm glad you posted and asked for more clarification.
Actually, you didn't understand what I was saying. I was referring to anyone who dies before reaching a point of accountability (what some people call 'the age of accountability even though there is no specific age). And it is this which you ask me to elaborate on later in this post, which I will do.
June, if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation.
So June, if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.
The word 'of' was perhaps a poor choice on my part. I simply meant that once a person has become aware though natural or general revelation that God exists, if he then has a desire to know God, then he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel message which gives us specific revelation, or information concerning Christ, or about Christ. The use of the word 'of' changes the meaning of what I intended to say.
The gospel is the good news concerning Jesus' saving work on our behalf. And anyone who has positive volition at the point of what I call 'God consciousness' through the natural revelation of God's creation will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel. However, positive volition at the point of God consciousness does not necessarily mean that a person will believe the gospel message.
Well, as I said above, you misunderstood what I meant in those sentences. But I will say again that if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.
You said at the top of the post that you don't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it and that you don't fully grasp how one can believe in eternal torment.
Since I believe that the Bible is God's objective revelation to man (the reasons why I believe that is probably off topic), it follows then that I believe what it says about the subject of eternal condemnation which involves being separated from God forever in a place which is described as a 'lake of fire', but is also called 'the black darkness' (Jude 1:3).
Since we all will exist forever the issue is where we will spend the eternal future. The Bible says that we will either live forever in His presence, having an eternal relationship with Him, or we will be forever separated from Him, outside of any relationship with Him. The determining factor is whether we avail ourselves of God's provision of salvation which was made possible by the work of Christ on the Cross.
Many people don't understand how a loving God could condemn anyone to ''hell.'' It is important to understand that the Bible says that we are all born under condemnation. We were all condemned because of Adam's original sin (Rom. 5:12-19). And since I believe the Bible I therefore believe what it says about original sin.
The Bible says that God is love, but it also says that God is holy. That He is righteous and just. He cannot therefore ignore His holiness which is just as much a part of His nature as is His love.
Even among men, while a man may have love for his son, if that man also has a sense of justice he will understand that if his son commits a crime then he must be punished.
How much more so then must God who is infinitely holy punish sin which is a violation of His perfect standard. God's love could not and did not prevent Him from condemning Adam when he sinned, and God's love could not restore the relationship between God and Adam which sin had severed. But God's love was the motivation for providing a way of salvation which was consistent with His perfect righteousness and justice.
God's love, while not being able save in and of itself, was the motivation for our salvation. But it was God's justice which was the actual means or mechanics by which God could provide salvation.
It was God's justice that condemned us, and it is God's justice which made salvation possible. It is also God's justice which must leave under condemnation any person who does not avail himself of God's means of salvation. Jesus Christ did all the work to make salvation available to us, but only by personally believing on Christ is salvation a reality for us.
God does not desire that anyone perish, and He sent His Son into the world to die for the sins of the world so that anyone who simply believes on Him has eternal life. But God is bound by His own holiness to leave in condemnation anyone who does not believe on Christ. Again however, this refers to those who reach a accountability at the point of God consciousness through God's natural revelation of Himself in His creation.
I'll try to expand on that. There is a point at which man becomes accountable to God (there is no specific age of accountability) for his attitude concerning, or toward God. The moment at which man becomes accountable is when he first becomes aware that God must exist. And for some that might be as young as three or four years old (three might be too early as I'm not sure what a baby that age can comprehend. For others it may be much later. Some people, due to lack of mental capacity (severe mental retardation), might never be able to come to an awareness of, or understanding that God must exist, or comprehend the concept of a 'god' or 'deity'. If a person dies before, or never having been able to reach 'God consciousness' (and I hope that doesn't sound like a new age concept, because that is not at all what I mean) then based on the fact that God is just and fair, that person is automatically saved because Christ died for him.
God requires a volitional response from man. But a volitional response cannot be made concerning God, and specifically concerning Jesus Christ if a person cannot even conceive of the existence of God. And God is not unjust that He would leave in condemnation anyone who simply cannot even conceive of His existence. As I related in post #34 King David expected that he would go to his son (a young child, a baby) who had died. David expected to see him again when he himself died. The child died before reaching a point of God consciousness and so was automatically saved. And David expected to see him again.
But once having become aware of, or having become able to conceive of the existence of God then a person is accountable to God. If, being aware that God must exist (and natural or general revelation through God's creation is not salvific) he has no interest in wanting to know God, he may die never having heard the gospel which provides salvific information concerning Jesus Christ. But once, through natural revelation, he is able to understand that God must exist, if a person has a desire to know God he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel which provides salvific information.
Well, I hope that what I said above makes since to you June. And as I said above, if there was ever a point in your early life before your atheism set in when you did believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and you placed your faith in Him, even if that belief didn't last long, then you are still eternally saved.
Have a good weekend June. And if anything I said above is unclear, let me know and I will try to clarify if I can.
June's back.
Mike, June had every intention of responding to your post last night, but found that she needed to take the time to not only "re-group" her brain, but to do some reading, as well. So she did that. Yes, Mike, thanks to you, June was in her attic last night, rummaging through boxes of books, looking for the ones she read eons ago, and from there went back to "the source" itself, the Bible, and read Genesis (specifically pertaining to the Fall) prior to responding to your post. --And she's got to say, for the most part, she now understands, with (almost) near clarity what your explanation entails! The only question she has left is....WHY?
June's "why' pertains specifically to God's ultimate design, and pre-determination in orchestrating the Fall, whereby thus ensues the basis for the necessity for salvation through belief in Christ. She now understands all that you mentioned in your post, but for the life of her can't understand why God would have orchestrated things the way Genesis says he did, such that salvation would even be necessary. --Let alone the penalty that is to be paid (eternal damnation) for those who don't accept Christ as God and Savior.
June spent the better part of today re-reading the books she dug out of the attic, re-reading Genesis (more than once, at that!) and did, in fact, write you out a response to your post. However, she will have to decide whether to send it to you via DM, as in editing it, she feels that in large part what she's written would be "off topic." --And woe to a moderator who would post off topic, at the risk of potentially having to infract herself?
But let it suffice to say that given the reading June did today, yes: She understands your post. She still has an abundance of questions as a result, but like she said, she can't derail your thread by posting them on it. Perhaps she'll entertain the notion of starting a thread which specifically addresses the Fall, why it was written into God's "Divine Plan" such that there would be the necessity for obtaining salvation and being reunited, ultimately, with God once again through belief in what Jesus achieved via the crucifixion....
So her thanks again. June "relearned" a lot today in all that she read, and on an ending note, found that what you said about June's not necessarily being destined to eternal damnation to be true based on a number of things that she read. --She doesn't agree with it (for obvious reasons) but nonetheless, it was enlightening to go back and re-read some of what was read ages ago, and to learn a few new things along the way while she was at it!
So thank you! You actually got an atheist to sit and read the bible on this cold Sunday, and ponder your OP that much more! --Not exactly an ordinary, every day, common experience for an atheist, so smile!
Take gentle care and enjoy the remainder of the weekend, all!
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and as she's said above, respond later.
If so, believe June when she says she was not intending to come across as being harsh! Non!
