Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
All of these assertions that you say have no support, also have no scripture that directly denies them as statements;
There is, however:
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Both of these scriptures preclude the natural man, or the flesh, from receiving, or knowing, anything from the Spirit of God prior to regeneration.
Quote:
And I would say that many of your beliefs are also assertions that do not have support in holy scripture.
I've provided you with both scripture and support from the Gk texts. Neither of which you've responded to, other than returning with more naked assertions, and foolish commentary.
Quote:
But I think that the support that I would give for my assertions is the fact (since you have admitted to being a five-point Calvinist)
What I said to Charlie24, was that "I hold to all five points of the reformed faith", and that Calvin was not the originator of any of those doctrines I hold to. Calvin taught many things that I don't agree with, even things within the doctrines called "the five points". I hold to UR, as well as there being a limited atonement within the soul. Calvinism does not, nor does it make a distinction between those two aspects. There is actually a great deal of latitude, within the reformed faith, concerning these doctrines.
You should really refrain from lying openly about what I stated, or believe. Considering that you believe in eternal torment, you should take Rev 21:27 to heart.
Quote:
that in John 1:12, the scripture would have to read thus for the doctrines of Calvinism to be true.
Jhn 1:12, But as many as became the sons of God, to them gave he power to receive him, even to them that believe on his name:
Whereas what the scripture actually says is much different:
Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The order in salvation is important in this passage.
One must first receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour; and then one receives the power to become a son of God.
One does not become a son of God and then receive the power to receive Him; as Calvinism would try to teach you; it is the other way around.
The text you've quoted (Joh 1:12) is not speaking of "regeneration", so your "order of salvation" here is a moot point. Regeneration, that is: being "born of God", or "quickened", however, is being spoken of in the next verse:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Here, the text unequivocally states that those "born of God" (regeneration) are born not by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man (this would exclude your free-will faith doctrines), but rather by God, and without help or participation from the flesh. And consequently, seeing it precludes any faith on the part of one being regenerated, then it would necessitate regeneration proceeding faith.
If this is not clear than there is really not much else I can help you with.
No, I am not blind for that I accept certain scripture as inspired. You may be blind for that you ignore the same scripture.
I do believe that the holy scriptures are to be accepted as a whole and that this means that there is no scripture that we can cut out of the Holy Bible in order to create a theology that is more to our liking.
LOL I gave you scripture and all you did was say I do not believe those scriptures because these scriptures tell me something else. You simply cannot reconcile the scriptures because your belief is not logical.
Lets try it shall we
Please reconcile Jesus taking away the sin of the world with sin being eternal?
Please reconcile death being no more with death being eternal?
Read the grammar of the Gk texts (Joh 5:24, as well as 1Jo 5:1) and look at the verb tenses. That will tell you what comes first.
Regarding Rom 5:2. There is nothing in that text to give credence to your assertions. Paul actually was given grace prior to having any faith at all, even prior to his own birth (2Ti 1:9).
Ask yourself: Why would you need to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith?
The whole point of needing to be regenerated, that is: "born of God", or "quickened", is so that we can hear, believe and receive the Gospel, and receive eternal life. And, that quickening is by grace, and it occurs when we are dead in sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What you are doing is conflating regeneration (that is: being "born of God", or "quickened"), with receiving eternal life, through faith. They're not the same thing.
Satan and the Pit? You really have no idea, JBF.
And, no doubt you were lied to by this person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
Jerwade, you have such a loving spirit that brings out the same in others.
Charlie, seriously, is it loving to condemn a finite life to an infinite, eternity of anguish, pain or suffering?
Especially, for being timid, fearful or cowardly? Because you were fainthearted at the prospect of war?
Or for merely not believing something at a particular point in time?
Have you not overcome the fear of sin and death?
Satan and the Pit? You really have no idea, JBF.
And, no doubt you were lied to by this person.
No doubt I am being lied to by you.
The person who told me what was told, is not the type of person to lie to someone; being a believer.
Whereas, I cannot say the same of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
There is, however:
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Both of these scriptures preclude the natural man, or the flesh, from receiving, or knowing, anything from the Spirit of God prior to regeneration.
I've provided you with both scripture and support from the Gk texts. Neither of which you've responded to, other than returning with more naked assertions, and foolish commentary.
The natural man can be helped to make a decision for Christ apart from regeneration (2 Corinthians 6:1-2) when the Holy Spirit draws a man.
I have responded to all of your statements and have shown how your scriptures do not teach Calvinism as you purport it.
Quote:
What I said to Charlie24, was that "I hold to all five points of the reformed faith", and that Calvin was not the originator of any of those doctrines I hold to. Calvin taught many things that I don't agree with, even things within the doctrines called "the five points". I hold to UR, as well as there being a limited atonement within the soul. Calvinism does not, nor does it make a distinction between those two aspects. There is actually a great deal of latitude, within the reformed faith, concerning these doctrines.
You should really refrain from lying openly about what I stated, or believe. Considering that you believe in eternal torment, you should take Rev 21:27 to heart.
There has been no intentional lying being done here on my part. Do you mean Revelation 21:8? I suppose that the verse that you gave also applies to your accusation.
I believe that "the reformed faith" is synonymous with Calvinism to a very great degree.
So the onus would be on you, if you claim to be of "the reformed faith" to define at what points your reformed faith is different from Calvinism as we know it.
Quote:
The text you've quoted (Joh 1:12) is not speaking of "regeneration", so your "order of salvation" here is a moot point. Regeneration, that is: being "born of God", or "quickened", however, is being spoken of in the next verse:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Here, the text unequivocally states that those "born of God" (regeneration) are born not by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man (this would exclude your free-will faith doctrines), but rather by God, and without help or participation from the flesh. And consequently, seeing it precludes any faith on the part of one being regenerated, then it would necessitate regeneration proceeding faith.
If this is not clear than there is really not much else I can help you with.
Perhaps you should understand verses 12 and 13 as speaking of the same thing; and that therefore verse 12 is in fact speaking of regeneration.
Verse 13 is qualified by Proverbs 20:9. I cannot make my own heart clean; only God can do that. However, God will not do that in me against my will.
Therefore, while my being born again is not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh; it also stands to be true that being born again is never against the will of man or the will of the flesh.
For, in order to be born again (to become a son of God) one must receive Christ.
Becoming a son of God is being born of God; and therefore, according to your definition of regeneration, John 1;12 does in fact speak of regeneration.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 08-22-2021 at 09:35 PM..
LOL I gave you scripture and all you did was say I do not believe those scriptures because these scriptures tell me something else. You simply cannot reconcile the scriptures because your belief is not logical.
Lets try it shall we
Please reconcile Jesus taking away the sin of the world with sin being eternal?
Please reconcile death being no more with death being eternal?
Hey JBF you said in another thread you answer any questions addressed to you but have failed to answer my two questions above.
The natural man can be helped to make a decision for Christ apart from regeneration (2 Corinthians 6:1-2) when the Holy Spirit draws a man.
The text your using is about "receiving". The "natural man receiveth not" and "neither can he know" the things of the Spirit. So, you'll need to reexamine your doctrines regarding regeneration and the text you're using for support.
Quote:
I have responded to all of your statements and have shown how your scriptures do not teach Calvinism as you purport it.
Your responses have not dealt with the scriptures I've given you, and I'm still waiting for you to respond to Eph 2:5 and Col 2:13, and why it would be necessary to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith.
This leads me to believe you don't really understand the subject matter, and I think we both know this. If it be of Calvinism or not is irrelevant to me. So, Rev. 21:27 is still applicable to you.
Quote:
There has been no intentional lying being done here on my part. Do you mean Revelation 21:8? I suppose that the verse that you gave also applies to your accusation.
I believe that "the reformed faith" is synonymous with Calvinism to a very great degree.
So the onus would be on you, if you claim to be of "the reformed faith" to define at what points your reformed faith is different from Calvinism as we know it.
I actually did mean Rev 21:27, insofar as I don't teach Calvinism, nor do I think that the "reformed faith" should necessarily be considered "synonymous" with it.
The "reformed faith" is actually a return to the NT "faith". That faith being the teachings and doctrines taught by Paul and the apostles, "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jud 1:3). It's called "reformed" because it coincided with the Protestant Reformation started by Luther, as a rebuke against the doctrines of Rome (Catholicism).
It's interesting that you believe Calvinism to be "synonymous" with the "reformed faith". And to be fair to Calvin, most of what he taught did agree with Paul and the apostles. However, I don't believe you actually know what Calvin taught, and I think we both know that too. Here it is, though, for others who might be interested:
Perhaps you should understand verses 12 and 13 as speaking of the same thing; and that therefore verse 12 is in fact speaking of regeneration.
Verse 13 is qualified by Proverbs 20:9. I cannot make my own heart clean; only God can do that. However, God will not do that in me against my will.
Therefore, while my being born again is not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh; it also stands to be true that being born again is never against the will of man or the will of the flesh.
For, in order to be born again (to become a son of God) one must receive Christ.
Becoming a son of God is being born of God; and therefore, according to your definition of regeneration, John 1;12 does in fact speak of regeneration.
If you look at Joh 1:12, it's speaking of "receiving" and "becoming" with relation to spiritual things, neither of which the natural man can do, or actively participate in (1Co 2:14). That alone should tell you that v.12 is not speaking of regeneration. Proverbs 20:9 is also unrelated to regeneration. This also tells me you don't really understand the terms and concepts being discussed here and why this conversation is not progressing along.
On the other hand, Joh 1:13 is speaking of regeneration. The Gk word "εγεννηθησαν" means to be "begotten" or to "beget", in this case being "born of God" and referred to as "regeneration" within reformed theology. It's the same word used by Jesus when speaking of being "born again" in Joh 3:7. If you'll also notice, the Gk voice of the verb is "passive". That is: the subject of the verb is passive therein and is being acted upon without doing, or actively participating, in the action.
The rebirth is the exclusive action of God upon man. The will of the natural man is actually being bypassed. The natural man simply plays no part, for or against, the actions taken by God. Regeneration is therefore considered monergistic. And this should be obvious with the information I've given you.
You don't really seam to be grasping any of this, though.
Last edited by jjGuru; 08-23-2021 at 08:25 AM..
Reason: Link
LOL I gave you scripture and all you did was say I do not believe those scriptures because these scriptures tell me something else. You simply cannot reconcile the scriptures because your belief is not logical.
Lets try it shall we
Please reconcile Jesus taking away the sin of the world with sin being eternal?
Please reconcile death being no more with death being eternal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Hey JBF you said in another thread you answer any questions addressed to you but have failed to answer my two questions above.
There are some things that, while there is a reconciliation to every apparent contradiction from God's perspective, who knows all, we do not know what the reconciliation of them.
The fact is, Jesus does take away the sins of the world and yet sin is eternal;
And, death will be no more (while there shall be a second death that will last for ever).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
The text your using is about "receiving". The "natural man receiveth not" and "neither can he know" the things of the Spirit. So, you'll need to reexamine your doctrines regarding regeneration and the text you're using for support.
Let's see...
2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
I will concede that this passage is referring to receiving Christ.
When it says that "the natural man receiveth not", there is an exception in the case of the natural man who is being helped to receive because he is being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Your responses have not dealt with the scriptures I've given you, and I'm still waiting for you to respond to Eph 2:5 and Col 2:13, and why it would be necessary to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith.
The verses in question referring to the fact that before we are regenerated, we are dead in trespasses and sins.
The answer being that the Holy Spirit, when He draws a man to Jesus, enables him to do that which he could not do (since he was dead); He in effect wakes him out of sleep and he then has the option of getting up or else going back to sleep; as when you are woken up early in the morning and do not want to get up just yet.
Quote:
This leads me to believe you don't really understand the subject matter, and I think we both know this. If it be of Calvinism or not is irrelevant to me. So, Rev. 21:27 is still applicable to you.
I actually did mean Rev 21:27, insofar as I don't teach Calvinism, nor do I think that the "reformed faith" should necessarily be considered "synonymous" with it.
The "reformed faith" is actually a return to the NT "faith". That faith being the teachings and doctrines taught by Paul and the apostles, "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jud 1:3). It's called "reformed" because it coincided with the Protestant Reformation started by Luther, as a rebuke against the doctrines of Rome (Catholicism).
It's interesting that you believe Calvinism to be "synonymous" with the "reformed faith". And to be fair to Calvin, most of what he taught did agree with Paul and the apostles. However, I don't believe you actually know what Calvin taught, and I think we both know that too. Here it is, though, for others who might be interested:
If you look at Joh 1:12, it's speaking of "receiving" and "becoming" with relation to spiritual things, neither of which the natural man can do, or actively participate in (1Co 2:14). That alone should tell you that v.12 is not speaking of regeneration. Proverbs 20:9 is also unrelated to regeneration. This also tells me you don't really understand the terms and concepts being discussed here and why this conversation is not progressing along.
How does one become a son of God apart from being regenerated? Is it not regeneration that makes one born again (so that they become a son of God)?
It should be clear (John 1:12) that a man does not become regenerated (so that he can become a son of God) without first receiving Christ.
A person who is dead in trespasses and sins and who "does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; the exception to that rule is in the case that the man is being drawn by the Holy Spirit and helped along to do the receiving (2 Corinthians 6:1-2).
Quote:
On the other hand, Joh 1:13 is speaking of regeneration. The Gk word "εγεννηθησαν" means to be "begotten" or to "beget", in this case being "born of God" and referred to as "regeneration" within reformed theology. It's the same word used by Jesus when speaking of being "born again" in Joh 3:7. If you'll also notice, the Gk voice of the verb is "passive". That is: the subject of the verb is passive therein and is being acted upon without doing, or actively participating, in the action.
The rebirth is the exclusive action of God upon man. The will of the natural man is actually being bypassed. The natural man simply plays no part, for or against, the actions taken by God. Regeneration is therefore considered monergistic. And this should be obvious with the information I've given you.
You don't really seam to be grasping any of this, though.
What you do not seem ot be grasping is that man is responsible for his decision to either receive or reject Christ; but if He cannot receive Christ in the case that he is not one of the elect, then even if he desires to receive Christ and become born again, he cannot do so. Thus there would be a violation of what Jesus said in John 6:37, that whosoever comes to Jesus He will in no wise cast out. For the verse is violated if Jesus would cast anyone out who desires to come to Him for that they are not one of His elect.
Consider Psalms 27:8. Here is a situation where the Lord calls a man and is drawing him to Christ. His response is that he will seek the Lord. But wait a minute, he cannot seek the Lord if he is not regenerated, can he? That would indicate that there is no reward of salvation for that he sought the Lord but that the Lord would have had to save him so that he might seek Him.
But there is another option. That in saying to the man, "seek my face", the Lord is drawing the man to salvation. He now has the option of seeking the Lord or not seeking Him. If he seeks Him, he will be saved. If he does not seek Him, he will be left in the dark and will not be saved. But how does the man seek God in light of Romans 3:10-18? He is being helped along by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 6:1-2).
Again, if the man does not respond with the decision to seek the Lord, he will be left in the dark and will not be saved. He is drawn to the Lord when God says to him, "Seek my face". But he has the option of not seeking the face of the Lord; and then where will he be? Lost (Jeremiah 29:13).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
