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Jesus said, "if you believe I am not He, you will die in your sins,"
I believe Jesus' words too, found in Joh 8:24. Jesus said those words prior to his death. To die in your sins is to die in unbelief, not knowing, believing and having that knowledge of salvation that Christ brings to us when we receive the remission of sins (Luk 1:77).
The Pharisees did not believe in the identity of Jesus, that is: That Christ was God, manifested in the flesh (1Tim 3:16), their Messiah. However, this does not negate the fact that Jesus' death makes propitiation for their sins (1Jo 2:2), and that their trespasses are not being imputed against them (2Co 5:19). The Pharisees simply did not have that knowledge of their salvation, due to their unbelief, and consequently they would die in their sins, if they did not believe and receive Jesus as their Savior.
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Now, does God pick who will believe Jesus, who He will regenerate, or does He give us the Gospel and let us choose whether we will believe or not?
Yes, God regenerates whom He will, when He will and how He will, by His grace, and not by the will of man (Joh 1:13). The Gospel comes to the elect not in word only, but in power and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance:
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
That is why you do not understand, Charlie. You think WE have something to do with our salvation and we do NOT!!! Jesus saved us and it is finished, period! There are no works we can do or not do to save us because it is NOT necessary. We are saved. But there will be consequences for what we sow and some of those will be negative. It is those negative consequences that WE control and determine by what kind of Spirit we BECOME, Charlie.
The consequences have nothing to do with our salvation and they cannot be avoided except by OUR efforts during this life. Note I said EFFORTS (trying) NOT merely believing we are saved and NOT by our imperfect accomplishments because our imperfections are covered by the perfection (Grace) of Jesus Christ. It is the TRYING that sanctifies, establishes, confirms, and justifies our faith in Jesus and earns the cover of His Grace. Talk without trying to walk is useless.
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
It should be clear that we do not receive the Holy Spirit except by faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 1:13-14).
You do not understand what true faith in Jesus means, JBF. See the bold above. Receiving the Holy Spirit means being receptive to the states of mind in the Holy Spirit not memorizing scrip[ture. If your heart is so hardened by Moses that even the "Passion of Christ" cannot evoke those states of mind in you, nothing will until your heart is softened.
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And that it is through the Holy Ghost that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5).
It is by evoking those states of mind in you that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) sheds abroad the love of God, JBF. If you have the OPPOSITE states of mind in you, you have NOT received the Holy Spirit and are NOT serving God.
well maybe that is why you are blind you only go by a few verses (and you misunderstand them) instead of using the whole of scripture.
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Grace is the regeneration and then you get the faith to access that grace. in other word you get the faith to be able to stand in grace.
No, I am not blind for that I accept certain scripture as inspired. You may be blind for that you ignore the same scripture.
I do believe that the holy scriptures are to be accepted as a whole and that this means that there is no scripture that we can cut out of the Holy Bible in order to create a theology that is more to our liking.
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Originally Posted by jjGuru
Regeneration, or being born of God, is of grace, and proceeds faith. Read what Jesus said in Joh 5:24, here:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Those that are hearing and believing (both in the Gk present tense) have (also Gk present tense) everlasting life. Now read the final clause, and focus on the lead in word "but": That Gk term "αλλα" means in opposition to, or contrariwise, what proceeded: "but" is passed from death unto life". The word "passed", is being translated from the Gk "μεταβεβηκεν", and is in the Gk perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood. They had already (past tense) passed into life with continuing results. Those continuing results are the hearing and believing, in the present tense.
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Originally Posted by jjGuru
I believe Jesus' words too, found in Joh 8:24. Jesus said those words prior to his death. To die in your sins is to die in unbelief, not knowing, believing and having that knowledge of salvation that Christ brings to us when we receive the remission of sins (Luk 1:77).
The Pharisees did not believe in the identity of Jesus, that is: That Christ was God, manifested in the flesh (1Tim 3:16), their Messiah. However, this does not negate the fact that Jesus' death makes propitiation for their sins (1Jo 2:2), and that their trespasses are not being imputed against them (2Co 5:19). The Pharisees simply did not have that knowledge of their salvation, due to their unbelief, and consequently they would die in their sins, if they did not believe and receive Jesus as their Savior.
Yes, God regenerates whom He will, when He will and how He will, by His grace, and not by the will of man (Joh 1:13). The Gospel comes to the elect not in word only, but in power and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance:
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. This means that we do not have grace (and thus regeneration) apart from faith.
So, faith comes first and then regeneration.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You do not understand what true faith in Jesus means, JBF. See the bold above. Receiving the Holy Spirit means being receptive to the states of mind in the Holy Spirit not memorizing scrip[ture. If your heart is so hardened by Moses that even the "Passion of Christ" cannot evoke those states of mind in you, nothing will until your heart is softened. It is by evoking those states of mind in you that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) sheds abroad the love of God, JBF. If you have the OPPOSITE states of mind in you, you have NOT received the Holy Spirit and are NOT serving God.
TRYING is the wrong way to go, impaho. I have found that in all my trying, I have continued to have besetting sins; but that when I came to the end of myself and ceased from trying, I began to have the victory over those sins.
TRYING is the wrong way to go, impaho. I have found that in all my trying, I have continued to have besetting sins; but that when I came to the end of myself and ceased from trying, I began to have the victory over those sins.
Trying is the way you display your faith in Jesus, JBF, NOT by what you actually accomplish! It is the wanting and trying and doing your best that shows your faith in Jesus, NOT talking the talk! It is walking the walk even if you trip or stumble or have to crawl.
Trying is the way you display your faith in Jesus, JBF, NOT by what you actually accomplish! It is the wanting and trying and doing your best that shows your faith in Jesus, NOT talking the talk! It is walking the walk even if you trip or stumble or have to crawl.
If you are attempting to earn your salvation by what you are doing (i.e. trying), then you are of the law and are therefore under the curse (cf. Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
But if you are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, you are forgiven of every sin.
In order to come to that place of faith in Jesus Christ you must come to the end of yourself; and this means that you muat cease from trying.
What helped me is the understanding that we are not born of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God.
So, if you are born this way, you are not sustained by the will of man or the will of the flesh, either.
It would have to be God who sustains you.
And I do believe that this would result in a practical holiness that is even impeccable from the inside of your character and personality.
We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. This means that we do not have grace (and thus regeneration) apart from faith.
So, faith comes first and then regeneration.
Read the grammar of the Gk texts (Joh 5:24, as well as 1Jo 5:1) and look at the verb tenses. That will tell you what comes first.
Regarding Rom 5:2. There is nothing in that text to give credence to your assertions. Paul actually was given grace prior to having any faith at all, even prior to his own birth (2Ti 1:9).
Ask yourself: Why would you need to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith?
The whole point of needing to be regenerated, that is: "born of God", or "quickened", is so that we can hear, believe and receive the Gospel, and receive eternal life. And, that quickening is by grace, and it occurs when we are dead in sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What you are doing is conflating regeneration (that is: being "born of God", or "quickened"), with receiving eternal life, through faith. They're not the same thing.
I believe Jesus' words too, found in Joh 8:24. Jesus said those words prior to his death. To die in your sins is to die in unbelief, not knowing, believing and having that knowledge of salvation that Christ brings to us when we receive the remission of sins (Luk 1:77).
The Pharisees did not believe in the identity of Jesus, that is: That Christ was God, manifested in the flesh (1Tim 3:16), their Messiah. However, this does not negate the fact that Jesus' death makes propitiation for their sins (1Jo 2:2), and that their trespasses are not being imputed against them (2Co 5:19). The Pharisees simply did not have that knowledge of their salvation, due to their unbelief, and consequently they would die in their sins, if they did not believe and receive Jesus as their Savior.
Yes, God regenerates whom He will, when He will and how He will, by His grace, and not by the will of man (Joh 1:13). The Gospel comes to the elect not in word only, but in power and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance:
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Well then, you may not call yourself by that name but you are indeed a three point Calvinist. I seriously doubt a four point,
Rom. 10:13-17
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Here we see from Paul that the preaching of the Gospel gives whosoever the opportunity to call on the name of the Lord by faith from hearing the Word of the Gospel.
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Charlie, How can you think that what you and JBF preach brings "glad tidings of good things!"
Charlie, How can you think that what you and JBF preach brings "glad tidings of good things!"
Mystic, you have take off the panties and put on the boxers!
All of mankind will not be saved as you teach!
Man chooses his own way and God gives Him that way!
All the way to the "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
It's not His will that any perish but that is exactly what Jesus said would happen.
If man can't or will not follow the instructions that lead to His home, there is no other home but of the Devil, and we know what and where his home is that was prepared for him.
Well then, you may not call yourself by that name but you are indeed a three point Calvinist. I seriously doubt a four point,
Rom. 10:13-17
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Here we see from Paul that the preaching of the Gospel gives whosoever the opportunity to call on the name of the Lord by faith from hearing the Word of the Gospel.
I hold to all five points of the reformed faith. Not three, and not four. But rather all five. I also hold to an active and predestined reprobation of the "flesh", the "old man", the carnal nature of the soul. So, make it six points, hyper-reformed.
You do realize that Calvin did not create, or originate, any of the doctrines known today as the five points, right?
Regarding Rom 10:13-17:
You need to back up a few verses to give context to what Paul is saying about those "calling on the Lord":
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
The scripture Paul is quoting is taken from, here:
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
The faith of Christ is received when the Gospel is heard, by and according to election. And the "whosoever" that call on Jesus have the very words of their salvation already in their mouth and in their heart. That's what it means to hear the Gospel with power and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance, rather than hearing by word only (1Th 1:5).
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