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Old 08-24-2021, 03:39 PM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,847,256 times
Reputation: 143

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Grace has everything to do with the fact that Jesus died in our place as a propitiation ("appeasement of the wrath of God") for our sins.

We cannot have grace apart from Jesus dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins, and applying His perfect righteousness to us in what is called the divine exchange.

He took our sins upon Himself and applied His righteousness to us.

So, He died as the result of God's wrath and justice against our sin; and we live as the result of the righteous life that Jesus lived.

This is indeed unmerited favour; and it has everything to do with the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

Those who reject this doctrine, also do so to their everlasting condemnation (except they repent of their rejection of this doctrine within their lifetime); for this doctrine is the epitome of the gospel of Jesus Christ which must be received if any man is going to be saved from everlasting condemnation.
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Old 08-24-2021, 04:33 PM
 
63,840 posts, read 40,128,566 times
Reputation: 7881
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
Grace has everything to do with the fact that Jesus died in our place as a propitiation ("appeasement of the wrath of God") for our sins.
God has no wrath as unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross, so you have no basis for your entire premise for believing this convoluted and twisted rationale for Christ's all too obvious Grace (perfect agape love and forgiveness) in His HUMAN consciousness.
Quote:
We cannot have grace apart from Jesus dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins, and applying His perfect righteousness to us in what is called the divine exchange.
It is true that what Jesus achieved in His HUMAN consciousness on the Cross saved us from permanent separation from God because He achieved perfect resonance (IDENTITY") with God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness. That is something we could NOT achieve but our primitive ignorant ancestors completely missed its actual significance in favor of their blood sacrifice of a wrathful God interpretation.
Quote:
He took our sins upon Himself and applied His righteousness to us.
He made our imperfections ("missing the mark") unimportant to our connection to God by making that connection for us with His perfection (Grace)! We still have to build on that connection through the agape love of God and each other every day and repenting when we fail or we will reap what we sow but nothing more or less.
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Old 08-24-2021, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,376,582 times
Reputation: 2296
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
Grace has everything to do with the fact that Jesus died in our place as a propitiation ("appeasement of the wrath of God") for our sins.

We cannot have grace apart from Jesus dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins, and applying His perfect righteousness to us in what is called the divine exchange.

He took our sins upon Himself and applied His righteousness to us.

So, He died as the result of God's wrath and justice against our sin; and we live as the result of the righteous life that Jesus lived.

This is indeed unmerited favour; and it has everything to do with the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

Those who reject this doctrine, also do so to their everlasting condemnation (except they repent of their rejection of this doctrine within their lifetime); for this doctrine is the epitome of the gospel of Jesus Christ which must be received if any man is going to be saved from everlasting condemnation.
... to err is human to forgive is divine. And, that doctrine is not the essence or epitome of the gospel.
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Old 08-25-2021, 05:35 AM
 
4,483 posts, read 1,324,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
... to err is human to forgive is divine. And, that doctrine is not the essence or epitome of the gospel.
JBF is just providing you with the nails, you are doing the hammering!
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Old 08-25-2021, 03:09 PM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,847,256 times
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God does indeed have wrath and justice against sin.

Nah 1:2, God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Nah 1:3, The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
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Old 08-25-2021, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,376,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24 View Post
JBF is just providing you with the nails, you are doing the hammering!
I am not into brown-nosing, nor here to win a popularity contest.
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Old 08-25-2021, 04:19 PM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,847,256 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am not into brown-nosing, nor here to win a popularity contest.
Neither am I...

I guess that that is one thing that we have in common.
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Old 08-26-2021, 12:45 AM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,847,256 times
Reputation: 143
(cont'd from #395)

Psa 5:5, The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6, Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 76:7, Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry?
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Old 08-26-2021, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
28,099 posts, read 29,986,691 times
Reputation: 13125
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
Grace has everything to do with the fact that Jesus died in our place as a propitiation ("appeasement of the wrath of God") for our sins.
How is anyone benefitted by the suffering of an innocent person? Why would punishing an innocent person appease God's wrath? I would very much like to see a well-thought-out response. Please don't just parrot what you've been taught all your life. Stop and think about it.

It may help if you were to imagine that you had two sons. One of them did something horrific and you are absolutely livid. Would it appease your anger to punish the other son? And more importantly, would either son benefit by the wrong one being punished?
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Old 08-26-2021, 09:26 AM
 
63,840 posts, read 40,128,566 times
Reputation: 7881
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
(cont'd from #395)

Psa 5:5, The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6, Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 76:7, Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry?
You can save yourself a lot of time citing the OT, JBF. Anyone who knows the OT at all knows the God described in it is wrathful and vengeful. That would be why they failed to understand God. The New Covenant instituted by Jesus was supposed to correct that, but like you, our ancestors simply could not let go of their wrathful War God.
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