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Nonsense. YOU have no idea what it is because you REFUSE to see it in Jesus on the Cross to protect your wrathful interpretation of God from the OT. That is such sad ignorance about what God wants from us now that we are saved by Jesus. As long as what consequences happen to us is not dependent upon what we do or become, that is the easy believism faith you want to have in Christ, right Charlie? God forbid you should have to TRY to love as Jesus did to avoid what we earn by what we BECOME!! You have missed the central message of Christ's Gospel of agape love and forgiveness, Charlie. You and JBF will regret following our ignorant ancestors' belief in God's wrath instead of His agape love.
Of course, we will not develop a fully mature Spirit in this lifetime. Jesus already had it to guide His human maturation. We just need to develop enough spiritual maturity to be born again as an INFANT Spirit. You are not even trying that, Charlie. All that weeping and gnashing of teeth will be from you and JBF for NOT trying and harboring states of mind that are the exact OPPOSITE of agape love.
Eph. 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
This is sad, Mystic! You are making your salvation of yourself it is not a gift to you having worked for it (in the bold in your post) , and that is not salvation, my friend!
The only one whose steps are directed by the Lord is the one who trusts God and desires his steps to be directed. The narrow path!
That's not what the text says, is it Charlie. Read it again, this time using the Hebrew text, and look at the Hebrew word being translated as "man". Next, find a good Hebrew lexicon and read it. And when you're finished doing that, read Joh 8:47.
Your free will idol is dead, and has been since Adam spiritually died.
Here is a good primer on the sovereignty of God for you to start with:
Eph. 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
This is sad, Mystic! You are making your salvation of yourself it is not a gift to you having worked for it (in the bold in your post) , and that is not salvation, my friend!
That is why you do not understand, Charlie. You think WE have something to do with our salvation and we do NOT!!! Jesus saved us and it is finished, period! There are no works we can do or not do to save us because it is NOT necessary. We are saved. But there will be consequences for what we sow and some of those will be negative. It is those negative consequences that WE control and determine by what kind of Spirit we BECOME, Charlie.
The consequences have nothing to do with our salvation and they cannot be avoided except by OUR efforts during this life. Note I said EFFORTS (trying) NOT merely believing we are saved and NOT by our imperfect accomplishments because our imperfections are covered by the perfection (Grace) of Jesus Christ. It is the TRYING that sanctifies, establishes, confirms, and justifies our faith in Jesus and earns the cover of His Grace. Talk without trying to walk is useless.
That is why you do not understand, Charlie. You think WE have something to do with our salvation and we do NOT!!! Jesus saved us and it is finished, period! There are no works we can do or not do to save us because it is NOT necessary. We are saved. But there will be consequences for what we sow and some of those will be negative. It is those negative consequences that WE control and determine by what kind of Spirit we BECOME, Charlie.
The consequences have nothing to do with our salvation and they cannot be avoided except by OUR efforts during this life. Note I said EFFORTS (trying) NOT merely believing we are saved and NOT by our imperfect accomplishments because our imperfections are covered by the perfection (Grace) of Jesus Christ. It is the TRYING that sanctifies, establishes, confirms, and justifies our faith in Jesus and earns the cover of His Grace. Talk without trying to walk is useless.
One day you will learn (hopefully) that it is faith in Jesus Christ that gives the Holy Spirit the legal right to operate in us and bring forth the fruit.
And hopefully that works of the flesh (effort on our part) is worthless, only what the Holy Spirit accomplishes in our lives will be accepted by God.
Of course this is learned from scripture which you have no time for.
That is why you do not understand, Charlie. You think WE have something to do with our salvation and we do NOT!!! Jesus saved us and it is finished, period! There are no works we can do or not do to save us because it is NOT necessary. We are saved. But there will be consequences for what we sow and some of those will be negative. It is those negative consequences that WE control and determine by what kind of Spirit we BECOME, Charlie.
The consequences have nothing to do with our salvation and they cannot be avoided except by OUR efforts during this life. Note I said EFFORTS (trying) NOT merely believing we are saved and NOT by our imperfect accomplishments because our imperfections are covered by the perfection (Grace) of Jesus Christ. It is the TRYING that sanctifies, establishes, confirms, and justifies our faith in Jesus and earns the cover of His Grace. Talk without trying to walk is useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
One day you will learn (hopefully) that it is faith in Jesus Christ that gives the Holy Spirit the legal right to operate in us and bring forth the fruit.
Legal schmegal! There is no such legal nonsense, Charlie. Just try to approach your daily life in the states of mind I have posted so many times showing the ones associated with agape love. It is nothing needing magic and is well within our grasp. Stop relying on magic.
Quote:
And hopefully, that works of the flesh (effort on our part) is worthless, only what the Holy Spirit accomplishes in our lives will be accepted by God.
You will not think it was worthless when what your works have caused you to BECOME is subjected to God's consuming fire of love, Charlie.
Quote:
Of course, this is learned from scripture which you have no time for.
Why do you keep saying this when you know it is not true, Charlie. It is a false witness. Doesn't that worry you at all?
How can God fail to save the world if that is what He sent Jesus for?
How can sin be eternal when He taketh away the sin of the world?
How can death be eternal when there is to be no more death?
You simply know not what you do.
I am simply going by verses that I have memorized and am adhering to them.
In Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 and 25:46, it should be clear that there is indeed "everlasting punishment" that is identified as "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in the "furnace of fire".
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
And just how is that an answer to the questions I asked? Just because you do not believe He takes away the sin of the world and death will be no more does not mean it will not take place your unbelief aside.
And the reason you are so screwed up in you belief is because you think you have faith before regeneration, when it is regeneration before faith.
Tell me Charlie who is the author of your faith?
If as the scripture proclaim Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith then is it not obvious that He has to first give us that faith before we have it? and that He gives it to us upon regeneration?
So, are you of the opinion that we can have regeneration apart from the grace of God?
Because it should be clear that we do not have access to grace (and thus regeneration) except by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:2).
I am simply going by verses that I have memorized and am adhering to them.
In Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 and 25:46, it should be clear that there is indeed "everlasting punishment" that is identified as "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in the "furnace of fire".
.
well maybe that is why you are blind you only go by a few verses (and you misunderstand them) instead of using the whole of scripture.
Quote:
So, are you of the opinion that we can have regeneration apart from the grace of God?
Because it should be clear that we do not have access to grace (and thus regeneration) except by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:2)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Grace is the regeneration and then you get the faith to access that grace. in other word you get the faith to be able to stand in grace.
So, are you of the opinion that we can have regeneration apart from the grace of God?
Because it should be clear that we do not have access to grace (and thus regeneration) except by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:2).
Regeneration, or being born of God, is of grace, and proceeds faith. Read what Jesus said in Joh 5:24, here:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Those that are hearing and believing (both in the Gk present tense) have (also Gk present tense) everlasting life. Now read the final clause, and focus on the lead in word "but": That Gk term "αλλα" means in opposition to, or contrariwise, what proceeded: "but" is passed from death unto life". The word "passed", is being translated from the Gk "μεταβεβηκεν", and is in the Gk perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood. They had already (past tense) passed into life with continuing results. Those continuing results are the hearing and believing, in the present tense.
Regeneration, or being born of God, is of grace, and proceeds faith. Read what Jesus said in Joh 5:24, here:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Those that are hearing and believing (both in the Gk present tense) have (also Gk present tense) everlasting life. Now read the final clause, and focus on the lead in word "but": That Gk term "αλλα" means in opposition to, or contrariwise, what proceeded: "but" is passed from death unto life". The word "passed", is being translated from the Gk "μεταβεβηκεν", and is in the Gk perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood. They had already (past tense) passed into life with continuing results. Those continuing results are the hearing and believing, in the present tense.
Jesus said, "if you believe I am not He, you will die in your sins,"
Now, does God pick who will believe Jesus, who He will regenerate, or does He give us the Gospel and let us choose whether we will believe or not?
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