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Read the grammar of the Gk texts (Joh 5:24, as well as 1Jo 5:1) and look at the verb tenses. That will tell you what comes first.
Regarding Rom 5:2. There is nothing in that text to give credence to your assertions. Paul actually was given grace prior to having any faith at all, even prior to his own birth (2Ti 1:9).
Ask yourself: Why would you need to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith?
The whole point of needing to be regenerated, that is: "born of God", or "quickened", is so that we can hear, believe and receive the Gospel, and receive eternal life. And, that quickening is by grace, and it occurs when we are dead in sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What you are doing is conflating regeneration (that is: being "born of God", or "quickened"), with receiving eternal life, through faith. They're not the same thing.
Paul was given grace from before the foundation of the world in that he was predestined according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2). God looked down from eternity and saw Paul responding to his Damascus road experience in a positive manner. Therefore, seeing Paul's faith from the perspective of eternity, He gave Paul grace. Paul had access by faith into this grace wherein he stood.
A person is regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ.
A person is enabled to hear, believe, and receive the gospel, not because of regeneration; but because the Holy Spirit is drawing him.
There is a difference between being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Being drawn happens to the unbelieving soul; regeneration only happens in the heart and life of those who have already been given faith and as the result of faith.
Paul was given grace from before the foundation of the world in that he was predestined according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2). God looked down from eternity and saw Paul responding to his Damascus road experience in a positive manner. Therefore, seeing Paul's faith from the perspective of eternity, He gave Paul grace. Paul had access by faith into this grace wherein he stood.
A person is regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ.
A person is enabled to hear, believe, and receive the gospel, not because of regeneration; but because the Holy Spirit is drawing him.
There is a difference between being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Being drawn happens to the unbelieving soul; regeneration only happens in the heart and life of those who have already been given faith and as the result of faith.
You really have no idea here other than more naked assertions. And you've not addressed any of the scriptures or comments I've given you.
I hold to all five points of the reformed faith. Not three, and not four. But rather all five. I also hold to an active and predestined reprobation of the "flesh", the "old man", the carnal nature of the soul. So, make it six points, hyper-reformed.
You do realize that Calvin did not create, or originate, any of the doctrines known today as the five points, right?
Regarding Rom 10:13-17:
You need to back up a few verses to give context to what Paul is saying about those "calling on the Lord":
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
The scripture Paul is quoting is taken from, here:
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
The faith of Christ is received when the Gospel is heard, by and according to election. And the "whosoever" that call on Jesus have the very words of their salvation already in their mouth and in their heart. That's what it means to hear the Gospel with power and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance, rather than hearing by word only (1Th 1:5).
Thanks for letting me know it's a 5 star thing. I missed that but we haven't covered enough of the scripture together to see it.
No doubt we are opposites, disagreeing on almost everything. No good conversation for us I'm sure!
You really have no idea here other than more naked assertions. And you've not addressed any of the scriptures or comments I've given you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
Read the grammar of the Gk texts (Joh 5:24, as well as 1Jo 5:1) and look at the verb tenses. That will tell you what comes first.
Regarding Rom 5:2. There is nothing in that text to give credence to your assertions. Paul actually was given grace prior to having any faith at all, even prior to his own birth (2Ti 1:9).
Paul was given grace from before the foundation of the world in that he was predestined according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2). God looked down from eternity and saw Paul responding to his Damascus road experience in a positive manner. Therefore, seeing Paul's faith from the perspective of eternity, He gave Paul grace. Paul had access by faith into this grace wherein he stood.
Quote:
Ask yourself: Why would you need to be regenerated, or "quickened" (lit: "to make alive"), if you already have everlasting life, through faith?
The whole point of needing to be regenerated, that is: "born of God", or "quickened", is so that we can hear, believe and receive the Gospel, and receive eternal life. And, that quickening is by grace, and it occurs when we are dead in sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What you are doing is conflating regeneration (that is: being "born of God", or "quickened"), with receiving eternal life, through faith. They're not the same thing.
A person is regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ.
A person is enabled to hear, believe, and receive the gospel, not because of regeneration; but because the Holy Spirit is drawing him.
There is a difference between being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Being drawn happens to the unbelieving soul; regeneration only happens in the heart and life of those who have already been given faith and as the result of faith.
Paul was given grace from before the foundation of the world in that he was predestined according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).
And, the grace given Paul proceeded his faith.
Quote:
God looked down from eternity and saw Paul responding to his Damascus road experience in a positive manner. Therefore, seeing Paul's faith from the perspective of eternity, He gave Paul grace.
An assertion with no scriptural support.
Quote:
Paul had access by faith into this grace wherein he stood.
Yes, we have access by faith into the grace wherein we stand. The access by faith is not the cause of the grace wherein we stand. That's obvious from simply reading the text.
Quote:
A person is regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ.
Another assertion without support.
Quote:
A person is enabled to hear, believe, and receive the gospel, not because of regeneration; but because the Holy Spirit is drawing him.
More assertions without support.
Quote:
There is a difference between being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Yes, there is a difference.
Quote:
Being drawn happens to the unbelieving soul; regeneration only happens in the heart and life of those who have already been given faith and as the result of faith.
He is merely here to preach at people, and has absolutely no discernment.
I gathered as much. My humoring him is really not for him, but rather for others that might find this thread and benefit from it.
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