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I can't say what any individual Catholic may or may not believe. I can only say what the Catholic Church formally teaches and formally condemns; and we as Catholics are required to hold to those beliefs. Of course, not every Catholic follows Catholic teaching.
Ok, I misunderstood the article as explaining two positions. ETA, I will go back and read the article again. I’m curious about the meaning of the cup and bread, in Catholic theology.
Last edited by Horn of ‘83; 10-12-2021 at 04:11 PM..
But the first person of the Trinity pouring out wrath on the second person of the Trinity is a rift. It's simply not possible. It implies that God the Father is displeased with God the Son, when in fact it's the exact opposite. Jesus experienced the wrath of man, not the wrath of God.
Yeah, that’s not what scripture says, imo, especially Isaiah 53.
Yeah, that’s not what scripture says, imo, especially Isaiah 53.
The explanation for Isaiah 53 is as simple as an acknowledgment that it was the Father's will that the Son should suffer. Christ submitted perfectly to His Father's will, even to the point of death on the cross.
It is incorrect to interpret that as God the Father punishing God the Son. God is perfectly just, and it is never just to punish the innocent.
God the Son willed to suffer in order to redeem mankind.
Suffering is not always the result of sin of the one suffering. In the case of Christ, it was not His sin that caused Him suffering as He had no sin; it was the sins of others that caused His suffering.
The explanation for Isaiah 53 is as simple as an acknowledgment that it was the Father's will that the Son should suffer. Christ submitted perfectly to His Father's will, even to the point of death on the cross.
It is incorrect to interpret that as God the Father punishing God the Son. God is perfectly just, and it is never just to punish the innocent.
God the Son willed to suffer in order to redeem mankind.
Suffering is not always the result of sin of the one suffering. In the case of Christ, it was not His sin that caused Him suffering as He had no sin; it was the sins of others that caused His suffering.
I disagree. Isaiah 53, speaking prophetically about Jesus’ suffering says that “the punishment that brought us peace was upon him” and “it was the Lord’s will to crush him”…
I disagree. Isaiah 53, speaking prophetically about Jesus’ suffering says that “the punishment that brought us peace was upon him” and “it was the Lord’s will to crush him”…
Yes, God allowed Himself to suffer an unjust punishment at the hands of sinners. This suffering brought us peace. It was God's will that this should take place.
Again, to construe that as God actively punishing Christ is an affront to God's justice as the justice of God would not allow Him to punish an innocent party. God does allow the righteous to suffer, but He does not actively punish when it is not deserved.
I disagree. Isaiah 53, speaking prophetically about Jesus’ suffering says that “the punishment that brought us peace was upon him” and “it was the Lord’s will to crush him”…
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? If so, this theory makes no sense. It invalidates the unity of the Holy Trinity. Christ said "a house divided against itself can not stand".
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? If so, this theory makes no sense. It invalidates the unity of the Holy Trinity. Christ said "a house divided against itself can not stand".
Yes, I do, but on the cross, Christ represented us. That’s why He was punished.
The dominant interpretation is that God required it to appease His wrath by a blood sacrifice so He could forgive us for "whatever" and save us from Hell or damnation.
Most churches believe that the "whatever" is "original sin." And then of course, ongoing sin.
God's "wrath" was at the sin, not at Jesus Himself. The sin represented on the cross.
I have a question for those of you who identify as born-again Christians. I would like to know how the experience of being "born again" has changed the way in which you interact with your fellow human beings, i.e. your fellow born-again Christians, all other Christians, non-Christians who are devout in their own beliefs, and non-religious or non-believing individuals?
In your opinion, has being born again made you a better person, or does it just ensure your salvation?
I believe that the belief of being born again derives from John Wesley and his idea of the second act of grace, which is the belief that at some point a miracle is performed by God and the person experiences a sort of sanctification, wherein they’re reborn “perfect” without the original sin of Adam and Eve. As a Catholic I find this to be, sorry for harsh words, heretical. Human beings can’t be made perfect, we carry around the stain of sinfulness for our whole lives, and that’s the entire raison d’être for Christ. I take St Anselm’s position on atonement from Cur Deus Homo, that the crucifixion was Jesus Christ engaging in an act of superoagtory obedience to make satisfaction for the disobedience of mankind made manifest in sin. If God intended to individually liberate people from the tendency to sin then the crucifixion was unnecessary, it’s payment for a debt that God intended to absolve....
Yes, God allowed Himself to suffer an unjust punishment at the hands of sinners. This suffering brought us peace. It was God's will that this should take place.
Again, to construe that as God actively punishing Christ is an affront to God's justice as the justice of God would not allow Him to punish an innocent party. God does allow the righteous to suffer, but He does not actively punish when it is not deserved.
You are so close to the truth. Jesus did what God required but He did it as a human so we would not need to be perfect.
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You are so close to the truth. Jesus did what God required but He did it as a human so we would not need to be perfect. 
