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See what I mean? We're back to the mythical idea that God completely reverses His character and desires at a persons death and thus will never save a person after death. BTW there is no scripture that says that people cannot be saved after the resurrection, yet there are scriptures that say God will save all.
Why, 1 second before a person dies, does God desire to save that person with all His might, yet 1 second after the person dies, God desires to burn that person for all eternity? Does God flip-flop?
God is willing to shew his wrath in order to make his power known ... What power? The power to change the wicked.
Ironmaw, you know as well as I do that the text in Romans 9 does not say that. It just doesn't. It does not say a thing about God's power to change the wicked, like he did to Nebuchadnezzar. Besides, Nebuchadnezzar hardly counts as an example of God changing the wicked after death since that happened during his mortal life.
No, the text says that God will derive glory from the "vessels of destruction":
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Look at verse 23. "He did so to make known the riches of His glory..." What did he do to make known the riches of his glory? Paul tells us in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Thus, God endures with great patience the vessels of wrath in order to make known the riches of His glory.
And that every tongue should confess(exomologeō - to confess, to profess, acknowledge openly and joyfully, to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to, to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Since "confess" obviously means more than just "confess" or "acknowledge," but has a variety of meanings, how do you determine which one Paul meant? Do you just arbitrarily think, "Well, I'll pick the definition that best suits my system of theology and make the text say that"? It certainly seems that way. I've noticed that pattern in a lot of UR folks on this board: You tend to pick the definition that suits your theology without going through a careful process to determine which definition suits the context. Until you do that, you're accomplishing little.
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That is what i see when i read eternal torment and annihilation arguments. But i know the ET argument as well if not better than most ET'ers ... So i understand their thinking and reasoning. And i realize you are not able to understand ours
Why are you focusing on me? What does my understanding of UR or lack thereof have to do with what the biblical text says?
On the contrary, I do understand your beliefs. I just disagree with them, and for good reason.
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...I dont expect you to believe in UR, as i believe God has purposely hardened the hearts of most Christians just as he hardened the heart of pharaoh,
More rhetoric. It's useless, don't you see that? I could say the same thing: I dont expect you to believe in eternal punishment, as i believe God has purposely hardened the hearts of UR adherents just as he hardened the heart of pharaoh."
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The many is the same as all ... He is saying the same thing in a different way ...
I marvel at how casually many on this board approach Scripture. Romans 5:12ff is a very difficult, complex passage. V. 12 alone is a challenge, let alone the rest of the passage. Not only that, but v. 12 actually connects to the previous verses going back to v. 1. But now all you say here is, "The many is the same as all." How in the world would you know? You haven't examined Paul's train of thought through the whole passage.
To declare, or to make a proclamation, is different then to reckon. To declare righteous (the actual meaning of the term justify) is an event that took place in God's court house, by the Judge. It is a forensic declaration by God. It is a one time declaration by God that He is satisfied with Christ's death on the sinners behalf. God's testimony of this satisfaction was Christ's resurrection from the dead, some 2,000 years ago.
The reckoning to righteousness takes place each time a sinner is brought to faith in the Gospel, in time. This event happens in God's accounting office, across the hall from the court house, if you will...LOL
The act of God reckoning (or imputing) a new believer's account to righteousness (let's say in 2010 AD for example), brings the knowledge of the declaration that was proclaimed by the Judge in the court house back in 30 AD (about 2,000 years prior)...OK?
The reason I believe that all will be saved is that God has promised to bring to glory everyone that He has justified:
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The term justified is not the same as reckoning. To reckon happens in time, and it happens each time someone is brought to faith by the Spirit. This reckoning through faith has no doubt happened billions of times. Justification, on the other hand, happened one time only. It happened at the cross (in God's court house, if you will), and it happened for all:
Rom 5:18 So then, as through one deviation it was toward all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act toward all men to justification of life.
This is the promise of the Gospel. And this is why all will be saved!
It's not my Gospel. It's the Gospel given to Paul by Christ. I only proclaim it. But you should believe it and praise God for it!
You must ubderstand the concept of time, there is much in the Bible that speaks of things already completed and we just have to wait out human time...such as when Paul talks of "because of whom He forknew" that is all in the past tense as if it is already completed...
Of course, when viewed from God's perspective all things have taken place from eternity. This includes our election, calling, justification, and our glorification. The point I'm trying to bring out is the unfolding of these phases in time, from man's perspective. Or rather the revelation of God "in time".
Our justification (objectively) is revealed "in time" at the cross. Our reckoning to righteousness (subjectively) occurs through faith, and is revealed "in time" when born of the Spirit. Our glorification (subjectively) is revealed "in time" at the resurrection.
There is an excellent web site that has a chart describing the various phases of the redemptive process and the timing for each of those phases. Although written from a reformed (limited atonement) perspective (I believe all sinners, rather than some sinners, are elect in Christ) it is nevertheless an excellent chart with much truth to be gained:
Most of what i see here is out of books written by others...it is not so much a self-study...
Exactly. I've noticed the same thing. You'll see plenty of links to articles written by others, but very few attempts to delve into a biblical text verse by verse to grasp the whole context. Consulting what others have said on a topic is not wrong per se, but it is very telling when people defer to those individuals and avoid expounding on the relevant biblical text verse by verse.
Good question. Only the Holy Spirit makes it known:
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
For some it may happen at the moment of death or during the resurrection.
1Co 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:
1Co 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up--to victory;
Not sure...LOL Not a cop out. Just don't know. But I know it will happen:
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
Praise Jehovah for it! We're going to be dining with the King of Kings, Jesus Himself, the God of Israel!
God who is love wants all people saved.
God who is all powerful wants all people saved.
God who is all knowing wants all people saved.
God who is unstopable wants all people saved.
God who 'so' loves the world wants all people saved.
God who knows the start from the finish wants all people saved.
God who can do 'anything' wants all people saved.
God who loves His enemies wants all people saved.
God who has every human beings hair on their head accounted for wants all people saved.
God who made humans in His own image wants all people saved.
God who is a loving Father, wants all people saved.
God who created us (His children) wants all people saved.
And since God gets what He wants, He will save all people because, according to 1 Timothy 2:4-6 God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind.
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Look at verse 23. "He did so to make known the riches of His glory..." What did he do to make known the riches of his glory? Paul tells us in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Thus, God endures with great patience the vessels of wrath in order to make known the riches of His glory.
I've high-lighted in red the words added to the original text. Your translation is the NASV. It's corrupt. This version adds words to the text to develop preconceived doctrines of men.
The problem I see with the doctrine of reprobation is that the actual text does not say what your translation would have us believe.
If you would, please define your doctrine of reprobation for us so we can respond.
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