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I was actuslly pointing out that the definition does not say anything about willingly or joyously....
Sure it does. Do a Greek lexicon search of the word ἐξομολογέω and compare all of it's occurrences and their contexts. It is only used for confessions performed willingly: I'll help find each occurrence for you here:
I've always been troubled (as in curious) by those who proclaim the gospel of damnation and the doctrine of absolute reprobation (from a supralapsarian point of view). For those that espouse these doctrines, were you:
1. Brought to this "enlightenment" while studying the scriptures in the presence of the Holy Spirit? or;
2. Were you taught these at Church or seminary school, or;
3. Were you taught these doctrines from a book other than the Bible itself?
My thinking is that there have been only a handful of minds (going as far back as Cain) that have actually had the ability to express these beliefs into words and to develop their doctrines for others to partake of and run with (pass the torch if you will).
It would seem not all would have the ability to develop these doctrines on their own, but I'm not sure, perhaps I'm wrong.
God is glorified by both his judgment on the wicked as well as the glorification of the saved:
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9)
A note about v. 23, boldfaced above: It says, "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,..." What was it that he did to bring this about? It's described in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."
Even the wicked can glorify God.
What you are doing, sadly, is claiming the falsehood of a doctrine based on your own system of thought. You personally believe that eternal punishment would not glorify God, and so you reject the doctrine of eternal punishment on that basis. For you, it is personal system of theology first, then the Word of God. It should be the other way around. Your system of theology should be derived from Scripture and judged by Scripture. That is why all such rhetoric used by UR adherents just doesn't work. It's just another way of saying, "This is how I think God must be, so it must be so."
No doubt you'll say that you do, indeed, derive your system of theology from Scripture. But what I've seen on this board is a lot of proof-texting, stringing together verses taken out of their context, thus creating the appearance that the Bible says this or that but lacking thoroughness and depth. The references to Romans 5 are a perfect example of this. Why does Paul say in Rom. 5:18,
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
yet in the very next verse he doesn't say "all" any more but uses the phrase "the many":
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
I'm not taking one side or another when I ask this. I am just pointing it out to show that the passage is not as clear-cut as to say, "Look, verse 18 says "all," so it must mean "all." Case closed." Neither side of this debate can take just one verse and make it oppose the other. That accomplishes nothing, since the other side can simply do the reverse. Then all you end up with is an incessant back-and-forth series;
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
To answer the question requires a thorough, verse-by-verse examination of the passage, tracing Paul's line of reasoning and thought from the beginning of the chapter all the way through to the end.
That goes for 1 Corinthians 3 and other passages that have been commonly brought up in this discussion.
I'd say since they are letters originally they should be read as such from the beggining to the end...not divided into chapters...that way one gets the whole though process of the writter...
Scripture must be read in context, not just verses pulled out, as even I had been guilty of doing . . . . . there is a consistent, connective theme regarding salvation . . . and all the fence posts/verses must be lined up.
Bless you for admiting your fault...you've done it therefore you are able to recognize it...
Ironmaw, you know as well as I do that the text in Romans 9 does not say that. It just doesn't. It does not say a thing about God's power to change the wicked, like he did to Nebuchadnezzar. Besides, Nebuchadnezzar hardly counts as an example of God changing the wicked after death since that happened during his mortal life.
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
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No, the text says that God will derive glory from the "vessels of destruction":
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Look at verse 23. "He did so to make known the riches of His glory..." What did he do to make known the riches of his glory? Paul tells us in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Thus, God endures with great patience the vessels of wrath in order to make known the riches of His glory.
I don't agree with you comprehension. What did god do in order to make known the riches of his glory on his vessels of mercy? Yes, He long suffered the vessels of wrath. Now, why is God willing to show his wrath? Is it to make known his glory? NO! He is willing to shew his wrath to make his power known. That is why he hardened pharaohs heart, so that he could make his power known. But in order to shew his glory he is patient with the vessels of wrath ... The question is to what end is his patience? God is patient with the vessels of wrath in the same way a parent is patient with a rebellious child, they discipline their child not simply to make them suffer, but to teach them the right way. As it is written ...
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
And what is the outcome of Gods wrath? What is the outcome of Gods wrath and judgments every time he judged Israel throughout the bible? Their ultimate repentance and healing ...
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Isa 57:16-18
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Let me ask you this ... Why did Jesus Ask God to forgive the people who had him put to death if he already knew that God was going to torture them forever?
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Since "confess" obviously means more than just "confess" or "acknowledge," but has a variety of meanings, how do you determine which one Paul meant? Do you just arbitrarily think, "Well, I'll pick the definition that best suits my system of theology and make the text say that"? It certainly seems that way. I've noticed that pattern in a lot of UR folks on this board: You tend to pick the definition that suits your theology without going through a careful process to determine which definition suits the context. Until you do that, you're accomplishing little.
Why do you choose to pick a definition of the word that doesn't even exist? Why do you choose to believe that most of the people confessing are doing so unwillingly because god is forcing them to say uncle before he throws them into the everlasting torture pit, when the word is never used in that context anywhere in the bible? ...
Ill tell you why i think that the definition of exomologeō which is the actual implication of the word is willing and joyous confession that Christ is lord in celebration of Gods will ...
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Psa 67:4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psa 68:32 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
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Why are you focusing on me? What does my understanding of UR or lack thereof have to do with what the biblical text says?
I am only anwering your posts, and you have come into my circle of influence by debating the doctrine of UR itself. I am not simply focusing on you, i have your belief in ET in my sights and am opening fire, not on you but on what you are professing to be the truth.
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On the contrary, I do understand your beliefs. I just disagree with them, and for good reason.
What good reason have you to believe God will torture most of creation for ever other than the traditional indoctrination you have been programmed with? Does the idea of eternal torture make you feel like you salvation is more valuable? Does the idea of most of creation being tortured make you feel like God is more glorious? Do you want most of creation ot be eternally damned?
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More rhetoric. It's useless, don't you see that? I could say the same thing: I dont expect you to believe in eternal punishment, as i believe God has purposely hardened the hearts of UR adherents just as he hardened the heart of pharaoh."
So you believe that desiring and believing that all people will be saved comes from a hard heart? Then God has a hard heart, because he will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). And Paul had a hard heart as well because he proclaimed God was the savior of all people not only of believers(1Ti 4:10) ... And John must have been hard harted as well for he proclaim that Christ died for the sin, and not only for us that believe, but for the whole world(1Jo 2:2).
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I marvel at how casually many on this board approach Scripture. Romans 5:12ff is a very difficult, complex passage. V. 12 alone is a challenge, let alone the rest of the passage. Not only that, but v. 12 actually connects to the previous verses going back to v. 1. But now all you say here is, "The many is the same as all." How in the world would you know? You haven't examined Paul's train of thought through the whole passage.
and i marvel at how casually so many Christians can claim that God will torture most of his creation. Or how most Christians believe that sin and the works of the devil will have a greater victory over creation that the blood of Christ and his work on the cross.
I also marvel at how you chose not to even acknowledgment what i said here ...
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
I agree, and you should have continued to quote Rom 5:20 and you would see that if what Paul says about grace abounding much more than sin, then it is impossible for even one person to be lost forever because of sin.
If sin will cause even one person to be lost for ever, then sin abounds more than Grace ... Yet Paul says clearly that Grace will not only abound where ever sin did abound, but that grace will MUCH MORE ABOUND where ever sin did abound. But you do not believe this ... And neither do most Christians ...
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-11-2010 at 06:32 PM..
Actually no one has knowledge (spiritual knowledge) of the truth unless born of the Spirit:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
Think back when you were without Christ, my friend. Before God brought you to life. It was complete darkness. There was no truth to be found within us. Do you remember that?
I do...but i also had a knowledge of Him and God...it was not a saving knowledge...at that time i saw other religions of having merit...now, only one has merit in my eyes and that is Christ Jesus...
1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
Does this verse prove that God will save all people?
No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved."
The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" - 1 Cor. 7:36, or "desire" - Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16. God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved.
But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out?
Yes and no.
God wants that people not sin. Do they sin?
Yes.
Is God's will accomplished in this?
No.
Is God in control?
Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out.
They will be judged for their sins, if not justified by faith in Christ, and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live."
Will they perish?
Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" - John 3:36.
The partition that was raised, was leveled by Christ, and Paul brought that very message to the Gentiles, allowing "all" men to come to the knowledge epignōsis of the truth. The precise and correct knowledge was then made available to the Gentile world, so that they too, might become saved.
It seems like we talk here about a creation that God made that got out of His control and that Salvation was a solution rather than His plan all along...like an afterthought when He saw His creation get out of control...
It seems like we talk here about a creation that God made that got out of His control and that Salvation was a solution rather than His plan all along...like an afterthought when He saw His creation get out of control...
AS if God had to go to plan B because his initial plan just didn't come off as intended ... As if God makes mistakes.
I do...but i also had a knowledge of Him and God...it was not a saving knowledge...at that time i saw other religions of having merit...now, only one has merit in my eyes and that is Christ Jesus...
Not to be harsh, but if you saw anything other than Jesus as having merit, then there was no knowledge of God or His Christ within you.
Php 3:8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
Php 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
When it comes to the things of the Spirit, the flesh profits nothing and knows nothing. The flesh is spiritually dead. You know this as well as I do. And it remains dead. The sinner must first become a new spiritual creation from above, a heavenly creation brought forth without hands. A creation of the Holy Spirit that will receive the things of God.
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